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How easy/hard is the game to learn? To teach?


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#1 Respectable Hobbit

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:30 PM

 I don't get much time to read and even though I picked up the book on Friday, I'm still only about 20 pages in. The dice system seems *really* hard to get the hang of. Especially since the rules about building a dice pool and interpreting the symbols seem to involve a lot of what the GM and players think is "common sense" and not a lot of hard and fast rules. Does everything get more defined further on in the book? Furthermore, is there someone in the New York City, Philadelphia, or Washington, DC areas that could teach me the game one-on-one?



#2 Venthrac

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 02:09 AM

 It's a narrative-based system and deliberately NOT rules-heavy (which I'm grateful for). Honestly, the best way to learn the game is probably to try playing it. If you want to take things step by step, play with only some of the rules and then phase more in as you go. For example, maybe ignore the rules for stuff like assisted, opposed and competing tests at first and just make everything a roll against a difficulty number. Don't worry about the Destiny Pool at first, you can phase that in later once you have a handle on the rest of the game. Maybe play without the blue and black dice at first, and just focus on how to make basic ability checks using the green and yellow dice versus the purple dice.

Do you have any specific things you don't fully grasp? I'm sure the community members here will be happy to try to explain.



#3 GM Chris

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 03:13 AM

Playing it is the way to go.

It's REALLY strange to explain this, man, and I don't know if you're going to believe me.    But believe me.  The dice system is actually VERY intuitive.  It doesn't necessarily read that way.  But I demo'd this at GenCon, and by the middle of the encounter, I (and everyone else at the table) totally had it down.  By my 3rd roll of a dice pool, I completely understood it.  By my 4th roll, my brain was already making matches and pulling them out of the pool, seeing if I had hit/missed and what advantages or threats I had - all before my GM could even speak.  It becomes extremely intuitive, very quickly.

Frankly, I was shocked by that.  But that's how it is.


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#4 awayputurwpn

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 03:35 AM

GM Chris said:

Playing it is the way to go.

It's REALLY strange to explain this, man, and I don't know if you're going to believe me.    But believe me.  The dice system is actually VERY intuitive.  It doesn't necessarily read that way.  But I demo'd this at GenCon, and by the middle of the encounter, I (and everyone else at the table) totally had it down.  By my 3rd roll of a dice pool, I completely understood it.  By my 4th roll, my brain was already making matches and pulling them out of the pool, seeing if I had hit/missed and what advantages or threats I had - all before my GM could even speak.  It becomes extremely intuitive, very quickly.

Frankly, I was shocked by that.  But that's how it is.

This is how it is with a good system. I remember trying to get my head around the Command & Colors system with Battlelore, and after reading through the rulebook twice and not getting it, I finally just opened the box, set up a scenario, and played through it by myself. And then I got it. And of course it's a bit more simple of a dice system, but there's also a hex board and pieces with different movement values and dice attacks and so on, so I felt that it was a good comparison, at least at first glance 

So, whereas a new system might be intimidating in concept, it seems that if you are willing to just sit down and roll the dice, everything becomes clear. Like ripping off a band aid, except more enjoyable.



#5 Shakespearian_Soldier

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 05:57 AM

I'm glad to hear that the SWR system is not only easy to grasp after a few applications, but also proving to be as narrative and exciting as it was supposed to be. Congrats so far, FFG - things are looking bright!


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#6 Lord Nikon

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:12 AM

after listening to the Order 66 podcast wrap about this, they said its very simple to learn and that the host was able, after a half hour of playing, grasp how the dice system worked.



#7 BrashFink

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:44 AM

GM Chris said:

Playing it is the way to go.

It's REALLY strange to explain this, man, and I don't know if you're going to believe me.    But believe me.  The dice system is actually VERY intuitive.  It doesn't necessarily read that way.

Yeah, this is 100% True. The 15 or so pages about dice seems daunting… but they are just making sure there is no question on understanding.

There is also a lot of rules that say the same thing for each of the different dice (So repeated). For example they fully explain cancellation in both the success/failure area and the Advantage/Threat area. This is good, saves from confusion, but there is actually less rules that in appears.

That said, I understood these dice nearly instantly upon finishing the dice section. Today I picked up the iPhone rolling app (do not have dice customized yet). It actually takes me longer to do all the canceling of dice than the interpretation of what the dice mean.

I would also like to state for the record, I am not one of these rules savant geniuses either.



#8 Venthrac

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:24 AM

I explained this game's core mechanics over the phone to a friend who has never seen the book and had no dice on hand, and he picked it up after about 10 minutes and was rattling off examples of how he would interpret the dice. Granted, he's a smart guy with decades of RPG experience, but that's a good sign, I think.



#9 BrashFink

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 04:42 AM

Venthrac said:

 

I explained this game's core mechanics over the phone to a friend who has never seen the book and had no dice on hand, and he picked it up after about 10 minutes and was rattling off examples of how he would interpret the dice. Granted, he's a smart guy with decades of RPG experience, but that's a good sign, I think.

 

 

Yeah I did the same to one of my friends.

Really there is only 2 sets of 2 symbols that cancel each other… Successes/Failures and Advantages/Threats… then symbols of basically a critical and a fumble. It is really not as hard as it seems.



#10 c8tiff

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 05:21 AM

i mentioned it was a star wars version of the whfrp3 and the phone line went dead…



#11 Callidon

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 05:44 AM

*sigh*

The blind hatred of WFRP3 is so popular someone should find some way to monetize it and become a millionaire.  It's too bad people are going to use that to punish the new Star Wars.  Especially since it really is its own animal.  Funky dice does not a twin make.


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#12 c8tiff

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 06:48 AM

if whfrp is so universally hated, then why didnt they just publish a revised star wars saga? is that mentioned anywhere in the order 66 podcast?



#13 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 07:07 AM

c8tiff said:

if whfrp is so universally hated, then why didnt they just publish a revised star wars saga? is that mentioned anywhere in the order 66 podcast?

Because most of the "hate" is from people who have never played it, let alone read the rules. Most comments from people who try it are positive.  

… and based on what I've read on the WFRP boards, many of those who have left the game after playing for a while would likely find that this version addresses their issues.


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#14 c8tiff

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 07:41 AM

this could be a positive step then, but i am tired of the players running from the table when i pull out a copy of whfrp 3, or the constant complaints that we should be playing descent instead



#15 Venthrac

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 08:36 AM

c8tiff said:

if whfrp is so universally hated, then why didnt they just publish a revised star wars saga? is that mentioned anywhere in the order 66 podcast?

Huh, that's funny. The gamers I interact with regularly tend to like WFRP3E and are netural at best toward Saga. I think we are a more rules-light crowd, generally speaking, and the d20 games are pretty crunchy. While WFRP3E did have a lot of component reliance, the core of the game was pretty light nad very narrative-focused and that appealed to us.

Anyway, I assure you, WFRP3 is not universally hated. I'm sure that, as with every RPG ever made, some people like it and some people don't. De gustaba non est disputandum and all that.



#16 Daalrak

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 08:39 AM

 I have to admit when I first played whfrp3 the first time it was a bit daunting, with all the cards and tokens but the dice was easily the best part of it. You have a set of good and bad dice. And to me this drives the story along so much better. I do admit I would prefer it without the cards sometimes but I will still play whfrp3 and I will be buying SW EotE.

I played a number of solo encounters with whfrp3 and thats the way I managed to learn it. 

Obviously a good community is a tremendous help! :-)



#17 Venthrac

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 08:53 AM

Yeah, Edge of the Empire appears to shed virtually of the card-based gameplay and tokens from WFRP3E, which I expect will make it far easier to run on a small table. I think that's fantastic - it's exactly what I would have wanted from the next iteration of this ruleset.



#18 cd8dman

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 10:45 AM

Venthrac said:

Yeah, Edge of the Empire appears to shed virtually of the card-based gameplay and tokens from WFRP3E, which I expect will make it far easier to run on a small table. I think that's fantastic - it's exactly what I would have wanted from the next iteration of this ruleset.

The irony of this whole thing is that if FFG were to make cards as a game aid, they would likely sell just fine.  The key here is to make sure it is optional, not required.  I think they learned their lesson on the component part with the large demand for hard bound books in WFRP3e.  The later repackage of that line just created a bunch of confusion in the product line though.

I personally am loving that the component aspect of wfrp3 is not a part of the new star wars game.  If they offered cards as a game aid, I know some of my players would be interested, I don't think I would be.

Now, on another note, FFG could learn a few things about how to make a good GM screen.  Though the physical quality and art of their screens has been good, I haven't been real impressed with the layout and the information present.



#19 Venthrac

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:00 AM

Well said, CD. Making it an optional add-on instead of a required component would be nice. I would not object to, say, optional Talent cards with some quick-reference info. Or maybe Force power cards.



#20 Respectable Hobbit

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 03:46 PM

Venthrac said:


Do you have any specific things you don't fully grasp? I'm sure the community members here will be happy to try to explain.

I guess I am just used to a more mechanical system. The idea of a narrative system excites me but also makes me nervous at the same time if I'm going to be a Game Master. Is it going to be incumbent upon me to make up a little story to go with each dice roll? And what happens if I just stare at the dice and go "uhh" and don't have an interpretation?

I get success and failure. I don't think I quite get advantage and threat. Is something in the game going to tell me what this does every time I roll? The same with triumph and despair. And when do I add the red die?






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