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#1 NAML

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:50 PM

 

Gentlemen,

 

I am a proud FFG client.


Your products have uncanny details, are fun to play and the company itself is very committed with the game community.


I was VERY excited that the Star Wars RPG game would be continued (or rather remade) by you.


I just heard the news on the announcement of Edge of the Empire and was heading straight to download a copy of the Beta version in order to read and give you guys an ASAP feedback…


It was with great surprise that I discovered that not only FFG was charging for the beta product but also it was almost U$ 30,00!

So, really, the idea is to charge us AND ask for feedback? o_O

I mean, I'd be GLAD to contribute with a symbolic donation to the Rebel cause, like U$ 5,00. Five, not thirty.

So I decided to write and see if there is any other sentient being that agrees with me. Maybe if enough voices join the chorus, we may be able to convince you guys to think this over. As a concrete example I give you the famous RPG Pathfinder - Beta version. It was free, the game developed with fans' help and is a giant on the field of fantasy. The final version of the product is sailing great, by the way.

Thanks for reading this.

May the Force be with us all.

 

Sincerely,

- Nelson Lemos



#2 BrashFink

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:21 PM

This book is full color, and looks like a full blown game book. If you do not wish to play the game early and/or assist in the beta, then you could just wait for the final release. They are under no obligation to follow anyone else's system for running their Beta.

Please keep in mind, participation in the beta is voluntary. No one saying if you do not play the beta, then you cannot get the game next year.



#3 NAML

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:43 PM

 Of course FFG has the right to do as they see fit with their product.

I am not arguing against that.

But, if you ask people to help improve your game, and you are going to charge them for doing so… seems… unproductive.



#4 Gobbo

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:46 PM

 PDF was nixed by Lucas and so can only be done as a print book and needs to pay for the licensing, hence the book I now hod and am pleased with.

 



#5 BrashFink

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:27 PM

I understand your point of view, but purchasing it did not come with a requirement or document to sign saying you agree to assist in the beta. I am pretty certain that FFG is happy to sell it to you as an early adopter. Of course, they just know that most people will because if they find something they do not like, they will most likely voice their opinions.



#6 eldath

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:02 AM

My feeling on this is that I would have no problem paying $30 for the beta so long as a discount was available against the final version. I fully appreciate that ,especially with a print version, there are costs that must be met. But lets be honest, even with printing and copyright costs there is no way that the book costs $30. I believe the best way would be $30 outlay to get the book and (working on the assumption of $15 costs for fantasy flight including printing and copyright) and a $15 discount from the final version.

I think making a profit off of a beta test copy willl only annoy many customers and foster ill will toward the company. I do not think that a complete discount like only war would work though as fantasy flight do have overheads to meet and they have paid out for the beta copies and sitckers to be printed.

Eldath



#7 Gallandro

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 02:14 AM

I really fail to see what the problem is with a company trying to make a profit, especially on a license as expensive as Star Wars. As has been established FFG could not provide a PDF version of this document per their licensing agreements with Lucasfilm so that's not even a viable option.

 

Had this been a photocopied, spiral bound edition as wad the original Star Wars D20 playtest book, then yes I would be pretty miffed. But this is a full color, professionally bound book that frankly is of a higher quality than many completed RPGs. Add to that the license alone and I think $30 is a reasonable price.

 

Would I like to have a coupon for a discount, sure. But it's not like FFG is forcing you to buy this… The choice is yours.  Don't like the price, then don't buy it.

 

Yancy



#8 The Old Man

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 02:28 AM

eldath said:

My feeling on this is that I would have no problem paying $30 for the beta so long as a discount was available against the final version. I fully appreciate that ,especially with a print version, there are costs that must be met. But lets be honest, even with printing and copyright costs there is no way that the book costs $30. I believe the best way would be $30 outlay to get the book and (working on the assumption of $15 costs for fantasy flight including printing and copyright) and a $15 discount from the final version.

I think making a profit off of a beta test copy willl only annoy many customers and foster ill will toward the company. I do not think that a complete discount like only war would work though as fantasy flight do have overheads to meet and they have paid out for the beta copies and sitckers to be printed.

Eldath

Ah, so a role-playing book is only worth the value of the printing expense and the paper.  The words on the paper must simply magically appear with no development, writing or artists costs.

That said I too think FFG should give a discount to those who bought the beta when the finished product comes out.  Or a FAQ to reflect the changes on the final product.



#9 NAML

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:33 AM

 I'm glad some did grasp what I meant. :)



#10 eldath

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:50 AM

NAML said:

 I'm glad some did grasp what I meant. :)

 

Sadly others obviously haven't. No I am not saying that a roleplaying book is only worth the value of the printing etc., what I am saying is that the development, writing and art costs should be paid for as normal through sales of the final item not a Beta copy. I have no issue with paying for the cost of a Beta but charging $30 for a beta which is pretty much the important parts of the game and then charging another $40-50 for the final item, Fantasy Flight may find people either not bothering with the Beta or only buying the Beta because apart from setting which experienced star wars fans and refs can deal with and art which though nice is not vital the game, will be a completely playable version. I am happy to pay the cost of the Beta and then pay full price for the final version but paying $70-80 is too much.

Eldath



#11 Damocles346

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 08:04 AM

Regardless of what you actually meant to say, this is what it sounds like you are saying:

"AWWWW, I want a copy now!!! I don't want a crappy copy, I want a real copy!!! How come all of these other people get to play with it but you won't give it to me for free!! Look at my awesomeness, you obviously should pander to my every need and desire regardless of reality or the fact that I would never submit a play test ever!!! You are doing it wrong!!! I should get what I want!!!"

 

 

All the rest of us are happily enjoying a new Star Wars product, and your single forum thread is not going to convince FFG to give you a free game, it's not going to convince Lucas to stop being a bastard, and it's not going to stop the majority of people from getting a beta copy. You sir tire me.



#12 NAML

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:56 AM

I absolutly have nothing against how other people spend their money. It's yours.

Also, I am completly fine with paying good money on a good product.

This a a tabletop RPG, not a computer MMORP,so I really don't get it about "playing it first". Evererybody will play it all the same eventualy. There is no competition.

That said, my issue is that a Beta version implies that the product is not yet fully functional. You are paying for a book that after released will get at least a 2-pages-errata, combat or other rules modification, and so on. 

If the product is completly playable and all is set right, then the marketing went wrong. It should be a Limited Special Edition, with more content than the regular version. And don't ask us for feedback. If it sucks (and I doubt it does), the complains will come naturally. If it is extremily well built, why bother? The only feedback then will be aplause.

What I am criticizing is that by charging expensively on the Beta, the idea of integrating the fans into the creation (or rather, the perfection) of the system is just wasted. I for one would be really glad to give share my insights and help to make better this game that we all love.

So I am very sorry if you read this as an anger towards the other players, who are brothers in dice. I am simply pointing out that I don't think this is the best way they could go with the advertisement of the product, and I think there is much more people out there who agrees with this point of view.

The least FFG could do, like a lot of people have pointed out, is to offer a good discount on the final edition of the product, since they are chargin so much for the Beta.

Hope this did clarify.

And may the Force be with FFG, to make this the best version of the game ever (I am a big fan of them, like I said).



#13 eldath

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 11:36 AM

Please refrain from personal attacks and insults. This forum is meant for players to voice their opinions and ask questions, not for people to get into flame wars. Everyone has a right to an opinion and everyone should respect that and not jump down peoples throats for suggesting something that you might disagree with.

I can see what NAML was asking and at no point did he suggest that he should get the book for free. The suggestion of a discount similar to the Only War beta is not a stupid one, both he and I have said that we would be happy for FFG to get the costs back, printing, copyright fees etc.  do cost but realistically not providing at least some discount from the final version may cost them sales as people may choose to buy the Beta and not bother with the final version.

I personally joined in the Only War Beta and emailed several suggestions and comments to FFG, but I also believe that some discount would be a good idea so I find your attack on NAML unfounded and unpleasant.

E



#14 BrashFink

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 01:48 PM

NAML said:

 I'm glad some did grasp what I meant. :)

I understood what you mean, I just thinking that printing costs alone would not allow a $5 book, or $30 off the final book. I could see some kind of small cost reduction though.



#15 Damocles346

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 02:58 PM

eldath said:

Please refrain from personal attacks and insults. This forum is meant for players to voice their opinions and ask questions, not for people to get into flame wars. Everyone has a right to an opinion and everyone should respect that and not jump down peoples throats for suggesting something that you might disagree with.

I can see what NAML was asking and at no point did he suggest that he should get the book for free. The suggestion of a discount similar to the Only War beta is not a stupid one, both he and I have said that we would be happy for FFG to get the costs back, printing, copyright fees etc.  do cost but realistically not providing at least some discount from the final version may cost them sales as people may choose to buy the Beta and not bother with the final version.

I personally joined in the Only War Beta and emailed several suggestions and comments to FFG, but I also believe that some discount would be a good idea so I find your attack on NAML unfounded and unpleasant.

E

It's funny to me that he understood what I was saying and you deem it a personal attack. If you would read the top of my post, the part that says, 'Regardless of what you were trying to say…' So I wasn't personally attacking him, I was letting him know how he communicated his idea to me. The way he responded was masterful, and I gained a lot of respect for him in that response, as he made good points. I still might think he is picking at things that don't need to be picked at, but I also acknowledge that he is true to his own reasoning.



#16 BrashFink

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:05 PM

I would like to state for the record, I was not trying to attack or insult you in any way. I seriously apologize if I made you feel this way.



#17 NAML

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:31 PM

Guys, no offense taken. Relax :)

In no way I want to pick fight with players.

Nor with FFG, for the record.

It is just that, IF the idea behind the Beta is/was to let us, players, be part of the creative process, charging this much seems to defeat the purpose. 

I now understand that George Lucas seems to have demanded that NO PDF should be 'printed' (yeah, 'cos THAT will stop digital piracy…), which significantly makes everything more difficult in terms of playtesting and spreading the idea (thanks a lot George! o_O).

But yeah, I was very disappointed with the course taken by FFG and I wanted to express it, since I have lots of friends here who, though not vocal about it in forums, do share this view. The main point is that I want FFG to be aware of this. I am totally cool with the players who bought the item, I myself plan to buy not the Beta (such as it is now), but the Final ver. for sure. But, it seems to me the company is capitalizing over an unfinished/unpolished product, which is not cool.

For those who are reading the book right now, if there is indeed good will on FFG's part to listen to ideas on how to improve this until the final version is printed, the time is NOW gentleman. ;)

Keep the dice rolling people!

For the Alliance!

 

 

 



#18 BrashFink

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 03:44 PM

OK cool… I suddenly got worried I upset you after re-reading a couple things.

I totally get your point of view, and I can tell you I would be right there with you on some other things, but I would more be like… "Well that is stupid of them to do… I will NOT be taking part" and leave it at that.

Unfortunately we are talking about Star Wars, and people lose their minds over Star Wars. Too much emotion attached to it… and I am one of those masses. LOL. So I lined right up and said… "YES SIR! here is my $30… book please!."

But then again, I really feel I am paying to play it early… but I will contribute anything I find odd, out of place or game breaking.

Mabuhay!



#19 Lord Nikon

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 05:37 PM

hey you never know, they might give a discount to those who bought the beta book and helped work on making it better. Maybe when you order the book, you will be shocked and there will be a coupon in the back, save 10% off your purchase or something…



#20 That Blasted Samophlange

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 09:42 PM

I've been on the fence about getting the beta.  30 dollars is a fair bit for a book that is not the final version.  45 with shipping if I ordered it directly from FFG.

As it has been stated, some of the reason behind the cost is:

  • It is a full colour physical copy - believe it or not, these cost money to produce
  • LucasArts holds all the rights to digital gaming when it comes to Star Wars - There can't be a PDF copy of this
  • There IS a cost as this is a licensed property.

There are a plethora of other reasons I'm sure.  Now, as a player each of us has to decide if we want this or not.  This isn't the final game, you do not have to buy this.  Plain and simple.  You don't like it, don't buy it then.  Wait a few more months.  Not a big deal.  Personally, I'm getting this because I'm trying to make my own RPG, and I like reading/looking at as many different mechanics as possible.  I'm not  going to spend the 100 bucks to play WFRP3e, but I'm interested in the mechanics.   These are highlighted quite well in this book as far as I know.

Also think about how this book is presented.  While it says Star Wars on the cover.  Well, since it's all about the fringe sorts you could easily adapt this system to whatever setting you want.  Want to run Firefly? There you go.  Traveller-esque free traders?  Freelancer?  You name it. All the characters at the raggedy edge.

Another thing is this book is all crunch, and no/little fluff.  If the rules stay the same or with minor errata, there's no reason why this book wouldn't be useful down the road.  Starting a new campaign?  Well, now you have two books for your group to make characters from, rather than just one.  Lots of groups like having multiple core books.  But if the final product is pricier than the beta (and we all know it will) it might not be cost effective to have more than one copy.

Now, if cost is an issue, and there are lots of reasons it can be, talk to your group.  You may only need one book.. If you have 6 people, 5 bucks a piece isn't so bad, and if you get 10+hours out if this game, you've more than paid for it in my opinion.  Where I live, if I go to the theatre to see a movie or play, I'm spending 10-15 dollars for 2 hours.  This book is 30 bucks, and I'll probably get more than 4 hours enjoyment out of it.

 

All that being said, I would love if FFG did something like you register the book, and you get a free set of dice down the road or something, but if they don't, well too bad.  Not going to lose sleep over it.

 


You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point if EU.




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