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[Migrated] Let's talk about Psykers shall we? (T.S. Luikart)


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#1 Wu Ming

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 07:07 AM

T.S. Luikart:

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 Lord Dunsany noted that it is unwise to summon that which you cannot dismiss, but considering the amount of email I've been getting lately, you all don't much care.

So by all means, let's talk about psykers and their powers in Dark Heresy. So first a full confession for those tuning in recently - I designed the overall structure by which psykers work in 40K (loosely based on Wizards from WFRP) and wrote a fair number of the powers, but by no means all. What follows herein are my opinions on a number of psychic Talents, powers and a variety of optional rules (and rulings). These things are my opinions and in no way "official", feel free to use or ignore anything I have to say on the subject. As to why some things were changed, my general answer is that a fair number of my original write ups were a bit more complex (covering many of the loopholes you all now love to debate over) and that a number of qualifying statements throughout the powers were modified and/or dropped in what I perceive as an effort to make Dark Heresy a bit more user friendly.

Rather than try to follow all the varied threads on psykers, their abilities and the varied arguments being bandied about, I figured I'd start this one, which I promise to check in on regularly.

So first, general rules:

You can only manifest one psychic ability a turn... The sole exception that I allow is Resist Possession which I allow to be used as a "Dodge" of sorts, 'cause lets face it, a possessed psyker can end your campaign right quick... the thought of which still kind of entertains me but the appearance of mercy staves off all sorts of complaints.

You are required to roll at least 1 die to manifest an ability - I wrote another set of posts on my ideas for alternate Invocations to get around this rule. It is, however, the original "official" position if you were still wondering.

So Psyker Talents. Let's talk about my personal daemon first: Corpus Conversion. The original idea behind CC was pretty straightforward: Like Tetsuo screaming out his rage, like any number of 40K protagonists that spurt lightning from their eyes and bleed from every pore, I figured the ability to take damage for raw power made perfect sense for psykers. CC as it is presently written allows far to much power for little risk. I have done the following in my personal games - note in advance that this is bloody harsh, but it is working out splendidly:

All psykers start with Corpus Conversion, it is now a psyker Trait. Johnny come lately psykers learn it soon after they pick up a Psy Rating 1 (or higher). CC allows a psyker to burn 1 permanent point of Toughness for an additional d10 on a Power Roll. They can do this up to their Willpower Bonus on a given turn, e.g. 45% Willpower, 4 WB, burn/sacrifice to the warp/whatever up to 4 Toughness points in order to get up to +4d10 on their Power Roll.

Now you know why psykers tend to be scrawny little bastards, yes?

Favoured by the Warp. Drops one's chances of ever having a "Perils" roll into the bog. This works for some games, not others. You may wish to change it to the following: You may remove a single 9 from any Power Roll. The removed die neither adds to the Power Roll, nor triggers a roll for Psychic Phenomenae.

A few Powers:

Constrict - The current favoured whipping boy. I agree that the "must" makes Constrict far to obnoxious for its low Threshold. Change the "must" spend a Full action to a "may" if the target wishes to "throw off" the Constriction. I think a Willpower Test to ignore the fact that you're being choked to unconsciousness / death is appropriate.

Fun Fact - Constrict was originally intended to allow a variety of uses, you could use it on ruptured blood vessels, e.g. you could "constrict" a blown off limb, automatically stopping Blood Loss.

Divine Shot - Like "Call Item" DS originally required a weapon that the psyker was attuned to - a personal sidearm or some other such weapon. It doesn't open a "hole through the warp" or any other such nonsense. It's an old Eldar trick that mankind has absconded with. It originally had a line about truly impossible shots, while still "hitting" may have their effective damage reduced to 0, e.g. the light from a Hellgun blast gets reflected off several surfaces and a mirror before briefly dousing its "target" in harmless light.

You have my permission to slapped players who declare that they're "attuned" to their "personal lascannon".*

Note that you also originally had to have a physical line of sight to the target, none of this "Far Sight" b.s. I do think that optical assistance, on the other hand, would work, e.g. Diviners carry cool looking brass telescopes for a reason...

...as do Pyros as Fire Storm also requires a "physical" line of sight to manifest on target.

Holocaust - The wounds caused by Holocaust can only be healed by time, psychic abilities do squat to restore them. That may seem harsh, but consider this: Daemons generally laugh at most mortals, including the bulk of psykers. Even if you are such a badass that you can take a daemon on with a reasonable expectation of killing it and surviving the fight, the corrupt bastard is laughing at you because all you're doing is destroying its manifested form and banishing it back to the warp where it will spend the next century or so contemplating the horrors it will visit upon your family line for the next umpteen generations. Holocaust burns spirit as well as flesh: anything killed by a Holocaust is warp-dead as well as physically dead. Psykers that can manifest Holocaust scare the **** out of daemons...

...not necessarily a good thing, but big bragging rights, eh?

Psychic Blade - Why the hell would anybody manifest psychic force visibly? One of the bad guys in my personal game was a serial killer that would lop the limbs off his targets in broad daylight (well, gas light, hive and all) and nobody would know who did it. Yes, you can ambush the crap out of people with PB. Yes, it is horribly nasty. It's also missing a crucial sentence: "When rolling a 95-00 while attacking with a Psychic Blade, a stray thought causes the psyker to attack and automatically strike his nearest companion. If there are several, the psyker strikes the individual he is emotionally closest too. If there is no one in range, he automatically strikes himself."

Projection - Yep, you can do all the other Telepathy powers while projected. You can Project, have your fellow Acolytes catch your suddenly catatonic form, "walk" right over and shove your ectoplasmic fingers into your chosen target's brain in order to Mind Scan them, and then head back to your body double quick.

So why is this not powerful beyond all get out? Well other than the sidebar "Closer Than Flesh" remember that there are a number of entities that will be interested in either making an incautious psyker's projected form their personal chew toy or taking their recumbent form for a stroll. The Imperium (along with many Xeno races) have a number of materials / wards that can block psykers from just waltzing in and possessing the local Planetary Governor for kicks.

Basically, it was perfectly left a little vague so a Telepath could work her magic, but a GM that feels abuse is in the offing has a number of tools to encourage said psyker to be careful.

Cheers!









*I accept no personal responsibility if you actually do slapped a player, even one that really, really deserves it. I might buy you alcohol at GenCon if you are of legal age though.


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#2 Wu Ming

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 07:08 AM

T.S. Luikart: First - I realized I missed a crucial bit in my Corpus Conversion overhaul which may change some of your minds:

Corpus Conversion can be done after the initial Power Roll has been determined to "fail" in achieving the Threshold of the power the psyker is trying to manifest.

And yes laughingowl - 9s on the extra dice certainly cause Manifestations. Kinda the point really. I think quite a few powers, along with Constrict, should certainly be "themed" to the psyker that manifests them. I managed to convey that directly in a few abilities (Fire Bolts) but I rather like to apply it across the board. I was even kicking around modified "Psyker Phenomena charts" for Masters of a Discipline. I figure a master Pyro's warp disturbances will more often than not be fire-themed.

Projection - brings up all kinds of interesting fluff questions, doesn't it? One running theme throughout 40K literature that I've noticed is the conflicting interpretations of where psychic ability comes from and what allows one Human to use it while another cannot. An argument can certainly be made for "Soul Sight" along with several other divinatory abilities... For more on "where abilities come from" debate, see the Null Rod entry I've attached to the end of this post.

Alasseo - I originally had a Telepathic power called "Thought Spike" which could only be used between Projecting psykers along with more and more rules on the subject... eventually became the kind of thing that should appear in a Psyker Handbook, neh? Hopefully, FFG will get around to that someday. And to forestall the inevitable: No, I can't post them, I sold them to BI. Sorry.

Nabs - I only apply "Closer" when there is "direct" contact, Inspire, Telepathy, etc. don't count; however, Mind Scanning your fellow Acolytes certainly does... especially considering the crap many Acolytes carry in their heads.

On Holocaust - I think it is worth noting that the damage die the psyker takes doesn't explode. In other words, the psyker takes 2 to 11 Energy Damage / Wounds a round in exchange for doing heinous damage to everything within 6 metres...


NULL ROD

Ancient devices that only the Tech-Priests of the Machine God still have the ability to produce, null rods are powerful anti-psyker weapons, but exceedingly dangerous to wield for extended periods. Crafted exclusively from a rare form of obsidian, activated null rods blaze with a corona of negative-psychic energy which all but shuts down the connection between realspace and the Warp. Within 3 metres of an activated rod, no psychic powers of any kind function and manifested daemonic entities can only resort to physical attacks. This blanketing of psychic energy cannot be excluded and applies to everything within the 3-metre radius, including psykers allied to the wielder of the null rod, or even the wielder himself. Note that the dampening only applies to directed psychic effects that start within or try to move into the field. For example, a telekine that hurled a Force Bolt at a null rod wielder would see the energy of their attack harmlessly dissipate 3 metres away from their target. If the same telekine picked up a chainknife with their telekinesis and hurled it towards the holder of the null rod, the whirring knife would likely still be sailing through the air due to momentum as it hit the 3 metre ‘barrier’ of negative psychic energy.

The reason null rods aren’t wider spread isn’t just due to their extreme rarity or difficulty of upkeep, but the extreme danger implicit in how they achieve their means. The Magisters of the Inquisition believe that psychic ability resides within the chemical-electric pathways of the mind, within the dance of neurons that make consciousness possible. The minds of psykers have far more of this neuro-energy which null rods seek to dampen. The diminishment of mental energy around a null rod is most notable in psykers, but actually occurs in all beings exposed to a null rod. Non-psykers exposed to null rods for extended periods begin forgetting important pieces of information, eventually followed by losing consciousness at random intervals, and followed by permanent brain damage as parts of their mental faculties are shut down due to the slowly corroding influence of the rod. This eventual baleful influence is well known to the Ordo Malleus and few dare to wield null rods in any but the most important battles.
Every five minutes spent in the presence of an activated null rod causes all within its aura of influence to successfully take a Routine (+20%) Will Power Test or acquire 1 Insanity Point. The test is a Challenging Will Power Test for the null rod’s wielder.

Stats: Dam: 1d10+2 E Pen 3 Spec Qual: Power Field Wgt: 1.5kg Cost: 12000 Very Rare

Cheers!



#3 Wu Ming

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 07:10 AM

T.S. Luikart: 

Cypher wrote:Can inactive Null Rods be targeted, manipulated or destroyed by Psychic Powers? Cut by Psy Blade, moved via Prescision TK, incinrated via Holocaust ect.



No, they're all but impervious to direct psychic manipulation, even when inactive. Ironically enough, though, they're relatively fragile without their power field on as they're basically a long modified crystal and barely stronger than glass.

 

Cypher wrote:Also I am asuming that a Psyker using an active Null Rod or holding one cannot manifest powers an dif they activate the rod while doing so all Powers cease. Hence a Pyomancer could not Cast Holocuast then activate the rod and be safe within the 3 meters while soul burning the remaining area outside of there.



Correct, but see below.

 

Cypher wrote:
Lke wise what might happen to a projecting Psyker whose material form comes with the radius or area of the Null Field? Any special emenations in the Warp or black spost that Psyscience might detect for active and inactive Rods?



A projecting psyker cannot enter the area of the Null Field, it acts as a solid sphere.

In the unlikely (though certainly possible) occurrence that a projecting psyker has a Null Rod activated or placed near his comatose body he is unable to return to his body till the field is turned off. This is unlikely to be any good for his state of mind.

Inactive rods would take a Very Hard (-30) Psyniscience Test to spot as they are meant to be unobtrusive when not in use. An active Rod creates a sizeable void that takes an Ordinary (+10%) Psyniscience Test to observe, er... not observe, notice. Whatever.
 



#4 Wu Ming

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 07:11 AM

T.S. Luikart:.

...

At one point I kicked around having "gateway" abilities, e.g. once you acquire a Discipline, the first power you must take is X. I finally decided more or less what Nathan noted: if you want to stay true to the "fluff" the system rewards you, if you want to "game" it, I'm not stopping you, but a given GM may wish to. Additionally, I figured that a psyker/player that worked their way up from First Rank to finally acquire a Discipline deserved a say in what they took.

The gateway abilities I'm certain you guys could figure out on your own, but for those who don't wish to bother:

Biomancy - Enhanced Senses
Divination - Dowsing
Pyromancy - Call Flame
Telekinetics - Telekinesis (surprise, surprise)
Telepathy - Telepathy (no s#@t, really?)

 



#5 Kage2020

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 07:12 AM

 He's also put up some interesting approaches to integrating the Psyker Grade premise from the background into the Dark Heresy game mechanics, though you'll find that over at Dark Reign.  It dodges the Alpha and Beta grades by saying that they are outside of the scope of the Dark Heresy system, but it's not an unreasonable dodge... 

Kage



#6 Wu Ming

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 07:20 AM

T.S. Luikart: "I'd like to table my thoughts on Psychic Sorcery until you all have had a chance to check out Disciples of the Dark Gods, then we'll talk some more.

A question I think worth addressing is "What does sanctioning actually mean?" There's a list of the after-effects of various sanctioning methods, but those aren't where the real worth of sanctioning lies. A sanctioned psyker is taught the age-old rote way, in other words, the safest way, to channel the warp into the series of effects we think of as the various psyker Disciplines. Without sanctioning, a rogue psyker is grasping blind, attempting to recreate an effect that s/he has "stumbled upon" by accident.

A number of players have asked what my opinion on "unsanctioned" psykers is - I usually rule that unsanctioned psykers cause phenomenae on 2 different numbers, 9 and another ever-changing number chosen at random (Ia, ia Tzeentch!). They also can't always properly control their over-bleeds.

Note that various Chaos groups can "sanction" psykers just fine.

As to Necrozius' neat question - which is indeed an interesting question by the by - I would say that the target(s) is(are) unaware that the psyker is targeting him(them) if the psyker succeeds, or doesn't fail spectacularly... a significant failure, say -30, would probably grant the target(s) a sneaking suspicion that the little punk in the corner was eyeballing him(them-soon to be lynch mob) in a completely unacceptable fashion.

See Me Not's effectiveness would definitely be limited though, if the psyker had no awareness of who it worked on. Imagine trying to cloud the minds of 5 guards and not knowing which could still perceive you and which couldn't. I can see the argument for that ruling, but it would significantly weaken the power.



#7 Wu Ming

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 07:22 AM

Kage2020 said:

 He's also put up some interesting approaches to integrating the Psyker Grade premise from the background into the Dark Heresy game mechanics, though you'll find that over at Dark Reign.  It dodges the Alpha and Beta grades by saying that they are outside of the scope of the Dark Heresy system, but it's not an unreasonable dodge... 

Kage

Is this a 'new' article or the 'old' one that was up about four months ago?



#8 Kage2020

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 07:27 AM

Wu Ming said:

Is this a 'new' article or the 'old' one that was up about four months ago?

It's the old one, but I just thought that I would mention it since we're "'[talking] about Psykers..." 

Kage



#9 Wu Ming

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 07:35 AM

Oh, O.K. I was just asking becasue I rarely vist DR these days... but thanks for including that, it will be most helpful to anyone without that article (which is Good.) It was also 'co-written' if I recall it wasw T.S. and someone else more like a side by side presentation of slightly diffrent takes on the same subject. I think that's also where the alternate Invocation Rules are included as well.



#10 Kage2020

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Posted 23 November 2008 - 07:46 AM

 Yep.  Lightbringer, I believe.

Kage



#11 fimarach

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 08:12 AM

Wu Ming said:

T.S. Luikart: 

Cypher wrote:Can inactive Null Rods be targeted, manipulated or destroyed by Psychic Powers? Cut by Psy Blade, moved via Prescision TK, incinrated via Holocaust ect.



No, they're all but impervious to direct psychic manipulation, even when inactive. Ironically enough, though, they're relatively fragile without their power field on as they're basically a long modified crystal and barely stronger than glass.

 

Is this a whole cloth creation or are you basing this on some part of the 40k universe?   I am curious because in the TT game (3-5th editions) the Null Rod counts as a power weapon in addition to making the Inquisitor's party immune to psychic power.

 

Otherwise though I must say I love the rules and drawback and wish this had been included in the Inquisitor's Handbook.



#12 fimarach

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 08:20 AM

Its too bad alot of your changes never made it to the final version.  I also liked the idea of "gateway" powers and I have a list of prerequisite powers myself (just as various talents have) and thats what I use to keep the psychic powers in line.

On the subject of Perils I would have liked to see more Perils that hurt the psyker only or mostly and fewer that hurt his companions.  Play wise it is more conducive to party unity.  Just imagine the RPG groups you may have been in where the Thief picks his fellow's pockets or the Assassin poisons the water supply of whoever disagrees with him. 

Also the Psychic Phenomenon are so trivial we seldom even bother looking them up when they happen unless we want a little laugh at how much grass is dying.



#13 Wu Ming

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 08:24 AM

Yes, I think he was basing the write up off of 40,000 Material. Aa to the TT rules remember you'll likely have your Null Rod or other Weapons 'hot' the entire TT Game / Encounter becasue you are in an active war zone and fighting. I think he included the brittle bit for more roelplay purposes, whether or not that has been previously mentioned elsewhere I cannot personally recall off the top of my head -- I'd have to 'hit the books', on that one.



#14 Wu Ming

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Posted 24 November 2008 - 07:17 PM

T.S. Luikart:

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I have been working on expanding various rules, optional and otherwise, for psykers to get the balance I originally sought between danger and power without needlessly complicating the rules. I think that those who originally thought the psyker's rules a bit harsh will approve and those that find them to their taste will still approve of the characterful nature of my suggest change.

To wit - I rewrote the Invocation Skill. Enjoy!


Invocation (Advanced)
Willpower

An Invocation Test allows you to channel the warp more effectively, whether to boost your powers or to retain a firmer grasp upon the flow of energy. An Invocation Test allows you to do one or both of the following: boost your Power Roll when using Psychic Powers by an amount equal to your Willpower Bonus and/or drop two or more dice you are entitled to roll, according to your Psy Rating, in order to change your rolled dice’s outcome down by 1 (generally to avoid rolling 9s and thereby invoking Psychic Phenomena). It takes a Full Action for each use of the Invocation Test that you wish to employ, though you only need Test once. During this time, you clear your mind thorough various means, such as muttering mantras, meditating, fingering psychic-foci and so on.

A successful Test indicates that your mind is well prepared to touch the warp. On the next round, you may either add your Willpower Bonus in addition to any other bonus you add to your Power Roll, change the result on any rolled die by 1 for every two die that you were entitled to roll that you did not, or both if you spent 2 Full Actions before making your successful Invocation Test. You can chose to not roll any dice at all in the hopes that your total bonuses still reach the Power Threshold of the psychic ability you wish to employ but only after a successful Invocation Test.

Example

Xerzes has a Willpower of 45 and a Psy Rating of 3, he is thus normally entitled to roll up to 3 die on his Power Rolls and add his WB of 4 to the total in order to see if he can achieve a given power's Threshold. If he wishes to simply boost a Power Roll, he can take 1 Full Action to make an Invocation Test and if successful, he can add an additional +4 to his attempt to Focus Power – making his Power Roll on the following Round the sum total of one to three dice +8.

Now let's say Xerzes is not particularly eager to draw the darker attentions of the warp, but is in a bit of a hurry. He can spend a single Full Action to make an Invocation Test that will allow him better control of the warp's flow. If successful, he can throw a Power Roll with only one die adding +4 for his WB, and that die can be adjusted down a single number, e.g. Xerzes rolls a 9. He turns the 9 to an 8, for a total Power Roll of 12 (9 for the roll + 4 for his WB). If Xerzes is not in a rush, he could spend 2 Full Actions preparing for his Invocation Test – this would allow him use 1 Power Roll die which could be adjusted down by 1, +4 for his WB, plus an additional 4 for the (presumably) successful Invocation Test, e.g. once again Xerzes rolls a 9, which he adjusts to an 8. His total is 16 (8+4+4).

Finally, Xerzes is in a quiet merchant's quarter where he dares not call up the dangers of the warp, yet he still feels the need to invoke the Minor Power Sense Presence. Sense Presence has a Threshold of 7. Xerzes can take 2 Full Actions to make an Invocation Test. If successful, he can choose to throw no dice at all, but he will still achieve an 8 on his Power Roll with his WB of 4 and the positive result of the Invocation Test – easily meeting the Threshold for Sense Presence, with no chance of causing Psychic Phenomena.


Dice can only be removed to adjust a rolled die on a 2-for-1 basis unless you are rolling no dice at all, it takes power to control the warp, but the ambient energy around a powerful psyker can accomplish a great deal. A 10 reduced to a 9 causes a Psychic Phenomena as normal.

Failure on an Invocation Test indicates that you are not composed enough to gain any benefits from your preparations. If you make a successful Invocation Test and then do not take the Focus Power Action on the following Turn, there are no side effects (aside from you possibly looking a little foolish).



#15 fimarach

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Posted 25 November 2008 - 11:32 PM

Hmm...so in your concept the psyker would have to check Invocation to use LESS dice than normal...implying he could not do so with out the check?  I like that idea of "runaway" power.  That would be a nice balance factor.

 

What do you think about a consolidated Perils/Psychic Phenomena chart with it all being in one chart?  Currently I feel that only a 24% chance of something bad happening to your friends does not feel right - both for play balance and party unity. 

I think the Perils chart should focus more on insanity gain, corruption gain, and stat losses for the psyker and less on effects that make everyone hate the psyker. 

As for the Phenomena chart it is more laughable than anything else - we only check it in campaign in order to joke about the dead grass or blood rains.

Also I was thinking about taking a page from Ars Magica in terms of the Psykers social existence.  In Ars Magica the wizards have trouble integrating into "mortal society" due to the effects that happen around them - animals tend to hate them, milk turns sour, people feel uneasy, and stillborns go on the rise. 

Wouldn't psykers produce similar effects just walking around?  Radios on the fritz maybe (talking in whispers if you listen close), poltergeist like temporary effects, shadows that walk on their own.  This might be a better social flaw than the specific Phenomena - after all just because the Psyker isn't currently channeling power doesn't mean that the warp isn't there, kind of gathered and waiting.

Mechanically this would probably just result in interaction difficulties based on the power level of the Psyker (say Psy 1 gives -10% to Fellowship) for the common folk and the fervently religious types (aka Redemptionists).



#16 Fgdsfg

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 02:49 AM

Alright, so, this may come across as a truly epic necro of massive proportions, but I'm posting in this thread because I have found no other way to "tag" threads in order to be able to find them later.

So yeah.

Spoiler

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#17 segara82

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 05:04 AM

I agree to almost everything T.S. wrote except the Corpus Conversion. Permanent reduction of any stat is a kinda big deal and T is already very expensive for Psykers. Sacrificing Wounds is IMO good enough, since 1 hit can take you out of the fight in DH.
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#18 Darth Smeg

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Posted 30 July 2014 - 07:27 AM

Yes, I've changed the ruling of CC too.

 

In my games CC works as per the book, but the damage taken cannot be healed by medicine or Psychic powers. Only time and rest will regain the lost wounds.


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