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Winning again a range damage of 0


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#1 Wheelz

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:58 AM

 I just got runebound 2nd ed. this weekend and came home to play it.  I have a problem though in that I must be doing combat wrong, or else the game is broken.

As far as I can see each ROUND of combat finishes when you choose to attack instead of defending.  ie. if you defend Range and attack melee you never get to magic.

If this is so, then any of the creatures that dont deal damage in Ranged combat can't win against you as long as you attack in the ranged phase?

Is this correct?  If so, then this game is soo broken, I must be missing something.

Thanks, 

Wheelz



#2 Dam

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:15 AM

No, no and no. Each combat round, your hero gets to attack in one of the three phases and then has to defend in the other two.

Can't even see how you'd read the rules and get the impression that the combat ends when the hero chooses to attack. There is nothing about ending combat prematurely apart from defeating the challenge or getting KOd yourself.

"The ranged phase is now over. If you have not defeated your
opponent and your Hero has not been knocked out, you must
now play through the melee phase."

"The melee phase is now over. If you have not defeated your
opponent and your Hero has not been knocked out, you must
now play through the magic phase."

"You will notice that you can only attack in one phase during
each combat round. In each phase that you do not attack, you
must defend." (p. 7)

Beginning on each paragraph under "ranged", "melee" and "magic" also list your options.

 


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#3 Wheelz

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:07 AM

 Thanks Dam, 

I have no idea why I read the rules like that.  I blame working too hard and then deciding to take on a new game while shattered.



#4 JCHendee

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 09:41 AM

Dam said:

There is nothing about ending combat prematurely apart from defeating the challenge or getting KOd yourself.

 

You forgot about "escape." Haven't ever tried it yet, considering the "knock outs" are so soft.



#5 Dam

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 06:32 PM

True, but most of the time the character is either A) Ranged, which means he'll take down the baddie during that phase or B) non-Ranged, meaning his Mind is low and since escaping uses that stat, odds of success are really low.


"A dirty mind is its own reward."


#6 The_Warlock

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:33 PM

JCHendee said:

Dam said:

There is nothing about ending combat prematurely apart from defeating the challenge or getting KOd yourself.

 

You forgot about "escape." Haven't ever tried it yet, considering the "knock outs" are so soft.

Really? If I see my Hero has no chance of avoid the knock-out and has some reasonable chance at success, I always try to escape. I rarely focus on one attribute only when building my hero and Mind is the secondary attribute to be buffed first, for escaping purposes.

Knock-outs aren't always soft, it depends on your current status. They make you lose a lot of money, lose your best Item or Ally and bring you back to a City that in some cases is so far away from the place you've reached. This means losing 1 to several turns in a game that is meant to be a race for the victory. The first to complete certain objectives wins and each knock-out brings you back. Usually, players that get knocked out don't win the games around here.



#7 JCHendee

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:13 AM

Well, my point was that "escape" is an option as well. I guess for myself, so far, I've not been knocked out that often. Less than a handful of times in memory after more than a year of play, maybe two. I've "won" an equal amount of times compared to the few others I play with. That's good enough for me, since I'm into the "play" far more than the "win." I suppose the low number of knockouts might be in part knowing when to go for the next level of adventure deck… vs. others who push it with only the "win" in mind and little fear of dying… and knowing myself the odds they'll get spanked for it.  As mentioned by Warlock, even the soft knockout has its lesser notice disadvantages; sometimes a win comes in part from other people getting reckless.

I've rarely seen a situation where I know my chance of knockout is exceptional or ridiculously high except in an endgame… or when I get reckless. There's also the "swoop" wins I've seen more than once, where someone goes in behind all others, gets the right cards and rolls, and bam(!) the game is over the last way anyone expected. My spouse, Barb, has done that just little to often for the odds. Its creepy… and annoying.

As to soft knockouts… the standard is soft and the fan variants on this are ridiculous… for no matter what you lose, it's less than what is deserved in many cases.  For the softer the knockout, the stupider people play; I've seen it. It's not even fun to watch let alone play with such people. But the knockout should be a disadvantage but not too severe so the game can continue with everyone involved and no one being left out for half the night.  It's sensible, but…

I've watched parts of a number of games at conventions and in the few shops I can get to. Of the players I've seen who get knocked out, well more than half deserved it. They are also the ones who whine the most about losing anything, as if they should come back from the dead like a reset button in a video game without a scratch on them and everything back in place.

I did once see a small tournament in a shop where death was death… the end. If you die, you are done in that game of the tournament. The trick was, even if only one player was left, that player still had to survive to finish the game in a specified number of turns (I don't remember the count). If that one didn't, then no winner for that game, and the number wins across games seemed to be (?) who moved up to the next level of games.

There were three games running the day I stopped in, with 3 players each if I remember right. The prize for first included one RB big box or the core game, some store credit, and a bag of convention swag for the winner. Second place got the big box or corel; I think third got a bag of swag. None of that would've matter much to me. I saw one knock out in the time I was there, maybe an hour and a half between shopping around and stopping often to watch.

It was amazing how much better balanced  game "play" was… for people still were trying for the win, but they knew death was the end for that game … and whoever was in the lead knew the instant everyone else was dead, that one could be in a bind if it all happened too quickly. But everyone also knew that reckless players would soon be gone from one too many loses, and there would be less chance of one remaining player getting caught a rush to win a game. It was a good game or games, full of tension and tactics. Made me wish I'd had the couple full days necessary to get in on it. One game did finish while I was there, and all three players were still alive.

These days, I don't see RB being played much at that one shop I go to, the closest one, and its still a 45 minute drive.



#8 The_Warlock

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Posted 29 August 2012 - 08:53 PM

JCHendee said:

 

Well, my point was that "escape" is an option as well. I guess for myself, so far, I've not been knocked out that often. Less than a handful of times in memory after more than a year of play, maybe two. I've "won" an equal amount of times compared to the few others I play with. That's good enough for me, since I'm into the "play" far more than the "win." I suppose the low number of knockouts might be in part knowing when to go for the next level of adventure deck… vs. others who push it with only the "win" in mind and little fear of dying… and knowing myself the odds they'll get spanked for it.  As mentioned by Warlock, even the soft knockout has its lesser notice disadvantages; sometimes a win comes in part from other people getting reckless.

I've rarely seen a situation where I know my chance of knockout is exceptional or ridiculously high except in an endgame… or when I get reckless. There's also the "swoop" wins I've seen more than once, where someone goes in behind all others, gets the right cards and rolls, and bam(!) the game is over the last way anyone expected. My spouse, Barb, has done that just little to often for the odds. Its creepy… and annoying.

 

I like your "recklessness theme" here. I know Runebound has room for this kind of approach to play: it's a game where you often see other players progress faster than you do, while jewels become rarer and rarer and you don't have cities with good stuff on Market stack nearby. My first handful of games was a total failure for me; we played with 5-6 people, I got nervous after the first 2 hours because I saw that I couldn't do anything to make the game work better for me. Winning was not the problem: it was about having fun. When you get to play once every 20 minutes and it doesn't look like you're making something meaningful during your turn, frustration will come.

Then I played a lot of solo games with the Doom Track and this changed things enormously. I've learned how to approach the game, how to optimize movement, how to plan ahead and which purpose each Market Card has (including cards that have no purpose). After that, my understanding of the base mechanics has become so profound that I manage to win 4 out of 5 games I play, no matter if we play the base set or the Expansions (both big box and card expansions, which I do not know card by card).

I never get reckless because I know what I'm risking; I know that depending on the Challenge type, I need to be prepared accordingly. I need good Items/Allies, a minimum set of attributes and an adequate amount of Exhaustion and Health left. If I have Gold to lose, I don't attempt a Challenge I'm not 100% sure to beat. I will spend the Gold first and will always plan my moves in order to get the best Items/Allies on the Market stacks while remaining in a board sector full of jewels.

To win or not to win, this is what you need to have a good game experience. Otherwise you'll get bored, tired or absent-minded, with reactions depending on you personal attitude: recklessness to keep up with the leading Heroes, or resignation, playing the game without being the protagonist. Of course

It's interesting to say that I've learned to play properly only when I pushed myself in the situation when a knockout meant losing the game, but going too slow meant losing the game either. The solo game with the Doom Track taught me so. The people you saw playing at the tournament were experiencing the same thing (knockout = game over), but without the urgency. The secret of Runebound is to keep your Hero alive, while progressing as fast as possible. I don't feel I'm taking away anything from this game because I'm playing to win, as I always have enough time to enjoy the unfolding story. When it's my turn, I've already planned my next two-three moves while others were playing, so I don't have to think too much and just live it. It's very strange that after 40 Runebound games (I won 34) I'm the only one playing this way.



#9 JCHendee

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Posted 30 August 2012 - 11:56 AM

Good rundown, Warlock, and all I can say is you've found the balance between playing and playing to win. And that is indeed the way most of the survivors in that tournament were handling things at a guess… though obviously in a tournament there's much more tilt to the win focus. Even that as you say requires staying alive.






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