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Help needed with a punishment…

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#1 Est_1987



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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:56 PM

Hey guys,

I'm currently running Rising Tempest and am looking for advice on how to punish a character.

Basically one of my charcters (a spacewolf) killed Lord Commander Ebongrave (The guy in charge of military in the Canis Salient) now ive already given him Rival (Canis Salient) to represent the amount of trouble hes caused to the Salient by taking out its key leader but his watch Captain has said he will be punishing him serverly when he gets back to the Watch Fortress. This is where I could do with some suggestions or ideas.

Cheers est_1987

#2 Thebigjul



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Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:24 AM

From memory there was in the scenario a place for the player to kill lord ebongrave, and lots of people ready to take his place.

So why, when and how did your player kill ebongrave?

Because most of the time in this story kill the man put just an other in his boots and make the whole lots of military braintrust take a big bowl of fresh air.

If killed while following the scenario then there's no punishment to give. The man was crazy, mad as a cow. He was almost killing himself.

But if the player kill lord ebongrave in public, with no reason (no reason clearly identified) then of course punishment can be prosecuted. But warning! All that stuff would be done in the shadow, because no angel of death can be traitor… for people sake.

#3 Est_1987



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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:34 AM

Well ebongrave was killed in front of a group of high command officers in his war room with a shot to the head from a bolt pistol. The reason the space waolf killed him was because he promised General Straine (deserter leader) he would. All the other marines disagreed and said it was a rash decision.

I've played it that the majority of the canis salient think that he was assassinated by the deserters in the four pillars uprising and that now he has been turned into a martyr. While all the military high command know the truth.

Although the hole left by Ebongrave was easily filled and the war effort carried on im playing it on a more demoralising one to the war effort so all military factions including the deathwatch have been hit by this event.

#4 AlphariusOmegon7



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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:00 AM

 Ok, there wouldn't really be much of a punishment.  

Ebongrave was actively hindering the Deathwatch in that Salient.  They'd be virtually jumping for joy.  Of course, they'd want to ascertain that the guy did it for non-heretical reasons, but other than that the Deathwatch wouldn't care.  The IG, all of them, are so far below the Inquisition and the Deathwatch in terms of authority that it's ridiculous.  

Of course, anyone who now knows the truth is going to treat the guy differently.  

Also, why is it demoralising?  He's become a martyr, just what the Imperium likes!  The Salient should now surge forward with its troops shouting 'Remember Ebongrave!' as they slaughter the Xenos.  

#5 Adeptus-B


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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:01 AM

Killing a high-ranking allied officer in front of witnesses will result in a Court Martial- I don't see any way around it. Sure, the Deathwatch hated Ebongrave, but they have pledged themselves to supporting the Crusade, and that necessitates respecting chain-of-command. Let the Spacewolf plead his case before a Tribunal of Deathwatch Captains; if he can convince them that he was justified (how's his Fellowship?), he gets off with a repremand. Otherwise, I really can't see being any more lienient that sentencing him to a suicide mission, with the promise of a full pardon in the unlikely event that he survives…

#6 Gaire



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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:53 PM

 Ah, politics in the Imperium. Okay, my first question is this: the brass that saw Ebongrave get offed, were they diehard supporters of Ebongrave, or were they more the type that realized his paranoia and insanity were hindering the Crusade? The man was, after all, diverting resources that could help in fighting the enemies of the Imperium to improve his personal protection. That's also a big deciding factor for the Deathwatch in how they treat the shooter. They swore loyalty to the Crusade, not to Lord Ebongrave. As far as chain of command goes, it's not just that the Deathwatch is outside the chain of command of the Imperial Guard and the Achilus Crusade- the entirety of the Adeptus Astartes has NO obligation to obey an IG officer. If they decide they need to take an officer out of the chain of command, that's their prerogative. If you insist on punishing your Marine, the punishment should not be for killing Ebongrave- it should be for taking the shot without getting clearance from his Watch Captain. He acted in the interest of the Crusade, the interest of the Inquisition, and the interest of the Deathwatch. The loss of a madman like Ebongrave would not cripple the Crusade. Several books (Achilus Assault/Jericho Crusade, can't remember which, as well as Rising Tempest itself) indicate that Ebongrave's subordinates are prepared to take his place should the unthinkable happen. They can lead the Canis Salient just as well as Ebongrave, without his particular degree of madness. The fact that he is treated as a martyr beyond anyone who knows the truth- meaning the high brass that saw him get shot, the Inquisition, and the Deathwatch- would improve morale, not demoralize the Crusade. As for those who know, the high brass would be sworn to secrecy by the Inquisition, the Ordo Xenos will be glad to have that roadblock out of the way, the other Ordos will want to make sure the Space Wolf isn't corrupted in some way, and the Deathwatch might be a little annoyed that one of their own overstepped the bounds of his mission, not that he blew the brains out of an Imperial Guard commander.

#7 KommissarK



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Posted 21 August 2012 - 04:20 AM

I think the big screw-up here was on the impatience of the player. Ebongrave easily could provide a reason for the kill team to put him down. The guy is a paranoid lunatic. Just give em a few odd hints and enough time and its gonna happen.

One big thing based on how that module is written, when would you have time for this? As soon as the PCs finish that mission, they're rushing off to the next planet (obviously, some changes can be made, but you'd have to provide a slightly new/different reason for sending them to that shrine world).

That said, I think the major thing is how badly did this screw up the Deathwatch's relationship to the Crusade forces? More importantly, who assumed Ebongrave's position after his demise? Its quite possible anyone filling that role is relatively friendly to the party (subject to change now that Ebongrave has an extra hole in his head). It could very well be that the relationship is unchanged for the most part. Removing Ebongrave is a service to the Imperium. The main thing would be a slap on the wrist for going about it the wrong way. As far as actual "punishment," I'd say a renown hit of about 5-10 points (enough to hurt mechanically). The only reason I'd go this far is because the player actively worked against the team. Really, if you're not cool with the renown hit, I'd give the team as a whole a Cohesion penalty of maybe 2-3 points until the marines work out their problem.

#8 Gaire



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Posted 21 August 2012 - 07:19 AM

 I dunno about a Renown hit. If it's not widely known that the Marine took the shot, then his Renown wouldn't suffer. A temporary Cohesion hit, on the other hand… that I like.

#9 Thebigjul



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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:47 PM

In my point of view all IG officers must right now be much more relaxed than before, the "psycho high commander officer killer" dead all could breath again.

The moral impact would be pretty low because of the fact the man was hated by his own troops. New leadership could only mean better life for all IG in the Salient.

Don't forget also that Tetrachus the crusade leader is right now quite pleased by the loss of this mad officer.

The murder had been made in private then no one outside the room know the truth, so they can make up all story they need to cover the real fact. In an other salient the lord commander is dead years ago and the officers are leading the salient under the cover of the late high commander name.

But in the regard of the deathwatch what does it mean?

First, one SM had been a little rash and act with a behaviour that can be suspect so they will test him for his moral corruption (then reknown loss, because brothers of the DW will know).

Secondly, the player act against his own squad so there will be cohesion loss untill the confidence between the SM is restored.

Thirdly, congratulation brother a big pain in the ass of the DW in the salient lay dead. Great! We can not promote you but thank you none the less.

At last, depending who get the high commander dead boots maybe the DW have now a special relationship between the salient forces and the DW. And for the rest of the crusade commanding officers, they will know that you don't have to mess around SM.

For the fact in legion of the damned novel, the SM hero kill a lot of high ranking members of Ecclesiarchy without any problem because he was thinking about the numbers of frater militia deployed and accussed the ecclesiarchy to break I don't remember witch edict forbidding the church to get an army under command. The emperor angels are upon the law. And more, they make their law.


#10 Est_1987



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Posted 22 August 2012 - 01:05 AM

Hey guys thanks for the replies.

The charcter already hit a reknown loss immediatly to represent his rash descisions but I like the idea of him being carted off by the Inquisition to be "screened" fro corruption making it known to all the DW in the Jericho Reach.

I also like the idea of a Tribunal. This could be a great roleplaying oppurtunity for the players.

As for the crusade yeh it would be made stronger by the death of Ebongrave I see this now.

The high command of the Canis Salient will in time "get over it" with the now Lord Commander Rheilia Vann in charge. Although being initially upset about how the events happend she understands that it was step that could only be taken by a Space Marine.

Thanks for the help guys its really helped.


#11 FailTruck



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Posted 22 August 2012 - 04:27 AM

 In a recent game my character was accused to undermining the chain of command after effectively taking control of a failing planetary invasion, turning the tables and winning the war (+20 in all tactics, +20 command, Talented - command, favoured son, INT 68, FEL 67 and total recall helped :D)

I was basically called to a tribunal to be given a formal dressing down by the IG high command, something I was told I did not have to attend.  Not wanting my honour impeached by their hubris I asked for trail by combat.  needless to say, I was acquited of all wrong doing. :D

#12 Zertz



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Posted 25 August 2012 - 07:27 PM

It may be worth mentioning that yes definately Ebongrave is a real bad dude but I think my thought process may be similar to this should I be an Imperial commander who knows the truth:

1.  Excellent, with Ebongrave out of the way we can maybe see some headway.

2.  Good thing those Space Marines are pretty much above the rest of us and can take care of these problems.

3.  Wait a minute… Space Marines are pretty much above the rest of us and take care of 'problems'.

4.  Am I a 'problem'?

5.  Better look behind me.. The Space Marines may take me out at any moment…..


Steps 3-5 will probably take some time for all but the most paranoid, but anyone who has made it to salient command rank is probably a little paranoid anyhow.

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