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D2 What a disappointment ..


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#1 svarun

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:23 PM

Me and my group have been playing Descent first edition frequently for quite some years (vanilla and campaign) , and i consider myself as an experienced Descent player And we Love descent first edition.. I own evey single piece of descent first edition that ever came out…  So i was really hyped to get my hands on D2…

But descent second edition, its just horrible… first of all they took pretty much all the good parts from descent 1 and threw them away, just to make a simpler more comercial game suitable for kids.. The OL has no summon cards or summoning options, no threat tokens to make a resorce managing plan, no relevant traps or tricks… he just places monsters in an areas he is told… then reinforces monsters on the same space he is told every turn… ( probably the same monster over and over again)… The ol cards… most of them do nothing, and even if they do it has no relevance since it does not really matter if a hero get knocked out…(unlike in D1)…

Heroes.. Well instead of having tons of different heroes, skills and shop items and potions and treasure items like in D1 they made classes in D2 (8 of them to be exact)… So it basically comes down to 1 hero always having the same class (since one class is always better than the other one)… and so the same set of items… Then they took the best part of the game from the hero perspective.. orders; they threw that away and only left rest that is boaring, since the OL has no way to interfear with it unlike D1.

The new line of sight … cant even really coment that, now you can basically see behing mosters… if you go 1 space sideways… even if you are lets say in a 10 space coridor 10 spaces away from a monster that is behind another monster you can still trace line of sight to both monsters … Why didnt they just remove line of sight then, would make more sence…

Stun… stun a bos every turn and he cant do a thing … Boaring

All ranged monsters throw the same dice… same goes to melee… boaring

Quests have close to zero replay walue..

So many things are decided at random, even winners of acts…

I could go on and on …

The only 2 good things in descent second editon are: large monster movement, and that there is no city for the heroes to hide …

There were many rule issues in D1 and sea of blood was not even worth buying but Descent second edition now this is the biggest disappointment from FFG i have seen so far… This really should be a diferrent game like runeQuest or something not Descent …

 

 



#2 Bobus X

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:37 PM

svarun said:

Me and my group have been playing Descent first edition frequently for quite some years (vanilla and campaign) , and i consider myself as an experienced Descent player And we Love descent first edition.. I own evey single piece of descent first edition that ever came out…  So i was really hyped to get my hands on D2…

But descent second edition, its just horrible… first of all they took pretty much all the good parts from descent 1 and threw them away, just to make a simpler more comercial game suitable for kids.. The OL has no summon cards or summoning options, no threat tokens to make a resorce managing plan, no relevant traps or tricks… he just places monsters in an areas he is told… then reinforces monsters on the same space he is told every turn… ( probably the same monster over and over again)… The ol cards… most of them do nothing, and even if they do it has no relevance since it does not really matter if a hero get knocked out…(unlike in D1)…

Heroes.. Well instead of having tons of different heroes, skills and shop items and potions and treasure items like in D1 they made classes in D2 (8 of them to be exact)… So it basically comes down to 1 hero always having the same class (since one class is always better than the other one)… and so the same set of items… Then they took the best part of the game from the hero perspective.. orders; they threw that away and only left rest that is boaring, since the OL has no way to interfear with it unlike D1.

The new line of sight … cant even really coment that, now you can basically see behing mosters… if you go 1 space sideways… even if you are lets say in a 10 space coridor 10 spaces away from a monster that is behind another monster you can still trace line of sight to both monsters … Why didnt they just remove line of sight then, would make more sence…

Stun… stun a bos every turn and he cant do a thing … Boaring

All ranged monsters throw the same dice… same goes to melee… boaring

Quests have close to zero replay walue..

So many things are decided at random, even winners of acts…

I could go on and on …

The only 2 good things in descent second editon are: large monster movement, and that there is no city for the heroes to hide …

There were many rule issues in D1 and sea of blood was not even worth buying but Descent second edition now this is the biggest disappointment from FFG i have seen so far… This really should be a diferrent game like runeQuest or something not Descent …

 

 

If this is not a Troll post, it is an incredible homage to one…



#3 Horo

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:56 PM

svarun said:

Heroes.. Well instead of having tons of different heroes, skills and shop items and potions and treasure items like in D1 they made classes in D2 (8 of them to be exact)… So it basically comes down to 1 hero always having the same class (since one class is always better than the other one)… and so the same set of items…

In Descent 1 our Heroplayers always took the same shopitems. So there is no diference for me… That was boring.



#4 kingbobb

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 01:26 AM

I'm interested in how big your play sample with 2.0 is.  After several plays, and indeed after just reading the rules and seeing the previews, I was pretty sure that people that love 1.0 would not care much for 2.0.  Both games feel like they are built off the same system, but they do different things.  1.0 attempts to capture the progression of an epic RPG campaign within the context of each individual quest.  2.0's epic format spreads that out across an entire quest, with the Shadow Rune spanning 9 total quests.  In order to capture those two progressions, 2.0 has to be very different from 1.0.

I do think your statements about the character classes being somewhat worthless is interesting, at least from the standpoint of being different from 1.0.  My recollection is that most people could agree on what the "best" or most effective hero combos were in 1.0.  2.0, with some significant and varied plays, people don't seem to be in agreement at all.  In fact, if anything is to be taken from the various comments posted on 2.0, the game is fairly well balanced and even, with many close games, but blowouts on both sides as well.  Often you get all three options within the same campaign using the same hero mix.

I do miss spawn cards…but there's nothing in 2.0 preventing the addition of spawn cards in the future.  I do prefer the goal oriented quests of 2.0, and I despised the portal/town aspect of 1.0.  I think the sweet spot for me would be a mix of 1.0 and 2.0, with 1.0's longer dungeons/encounters using 2.0's rules and mechanics being more of what I would enjoy. 



#5 RagePeon

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:06 AM

The only boring aspect of 2.0 for me is <basic> gameplay.  At this level the game is so stripped down that the heroes feel very 1 dimensional.  But play with even just the 3xp/150 gold start and there's a slew of build choices.  And that's the fun part for me, putting together a style of play that's all for me, and then throwing it at the dungeon and making it work.  Or sometimes not, as things go.

But either way I feel 2.0 has a MUCH better format for "choices" and strategy on the hero end of things.  As for the OL, I will never complain about having fewer tokens to mess around with.  You might see managing a resources like Threat as a perk, I see it as an unnecessary hassle.  It speeds up the pace of a dungeon run without taking away the core aspects of what is fun: Fighting things and looting goodies.  And maybe saving some people or something.

Although that does bring us to the 'treasure' aspect of D2.  It feels pretty underwhelming, I'll admit that freely.  I mean the items are all there in their fancy decks, but you aren't in the dungeon to get them.  You're there to do whatever else that isn't getting loot.  1.0 was a love-hate relationship.  The game was so unbalanced depending on the randomness of treasure chests, and I get that they needed to fix that problem.  But I seriously think it could have been a bit more interesting than "don't give them items, just random potions, unless their REEEALLY lucky.  Then give them 1 (not 1 per person) random thing".  This is my only real gripe; not having the satisfaction of pretending to open a chest and pull out shiny objects.

That aside, I haven't had the time to play campaign style.  Looking forward to seeing if saving up cash across multiple dungeons has the right kind of feel to make me forget I'm not just finding cool stuff laying around some musty old cave.

 



#6 Lilikin

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:18 AM

I find it hard to take people that complain about D2 seriously when measuring it against D1

In my group I buy and GM all the games and I can't stand not being ABLE to win which D1 was a one way road(but rarely to legend!)!

Thus it got very little playtime because I found it boring, and hated GMing it!!  

Haven't played D2 enough to make a full review and I am very sure it isn't perfect for everyone but personally I am thumbs up so far!


Wait lassie what's that noise? A few people telling FFG on a forum how to make their own games, well lassie that told them

I have three more ships than you so my opinion is twice as valid!!

#7 radiskull

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:33 AM

svarun said:

Stun… stun a bos every turn and he cant do a thing … Boaring

1) A figure cannot have the same condition more than once.
2) Stun consumes one action, not a figure's whole turn.

Sorry if this is troll-feeding.



#8 KristoffStark

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:07 AM

I just kinda hope that if he hates the game so much, he'll have no reason to post on the forum, and there won't be any chance that I run across more of his complaining.



#9 schmoo34

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:55 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't D1 about spreading heroes across the map so as to have line of sight everywhere so the OL can't spawn new monsters?  How on earth was that fun?  At least in this one, the heroes are grouped together and work together.

I do feel D2 can be vanilla at first, but the beauty is in the experience and development of heroes and OL over time.  My gaming group didn't appreciate it as much after the intro quest but appreciated it more when they did fat goblin and saw there were rewards and choices which carryover from quest to quest.



#10 Triu

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:39 AM

RagePeon said:

Although that does bring us to the 'treasure' aspect of D2.  It feels pretty underwhelming, I'll admit that freely.  I mean the items are all there in their fancy decks, but you aren't in the dungeon to get them.  You're there to do whatever else that isn't getting loot.  …  This is my only real gripe; not having the satisfaction of pretending to open a chest and pull out shiny objects.

That aside, I haven't had the time to play campaign style.  Looking forward to seeing if saving up cash across multiple dungeons has the right kind of feel to make me forget I'm not just finding cool stuff laying around some musty old cave.


I need to play more too, but there are relics you can score during the campaign.  

The idea of multiple valuable items sitting around in boxes waiting for strangers to pick them up was always a bit odd … you could pretend that you found the loot in the encounter, along with the potions or what-not, but were afraid it might be cursed.  When you get back to town you are really paying to identify the items, rather than buying them in Ye Olde Shoppe.  Does that make you feel better? 



#11 Triu

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 07:54 AM

svarun said:

But descent second edition, its just horrible…


 

Original Dungeons & Dragons, in three paperback pamphlets, was the only good version.  All those later editions were just money grabs by TSR, WotC, or whoever owns it now -- Disney?  Rupert Murdoch?  al-Qaeda?

And Batman!  Everything in the last 40 years is just a bunch of no talent hacks trying to milk the franchise.

I learned five card draw -- how can they even call all that other stuff Poker!  Texas Hold'em?  Please!

Oops, sorry there weren't more mispellings in that rant.  You kids get off my lawn!



#12 RagePeon

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:04 AM

Triu said:

I need to play more too, but there are relics you can score during the campaign.  


The idea of multiple valuable items sitting around in boxes waiting for strangers to pick them up was always a bit odd … you could pretend that you found the loot in the encounter, along with the potions or what-not, but were afraid it might be cursed.  When you get back to town you are really paying to identify the items, rather than buying them in Ye Olde Shoppe.  Does that make you feel better? 

 

 

Haha, I think I can make that work, my imagination is pretty good.  "Say, what is this item here?  Exactly what I wanted? AWESOME!"  :D



#13 MasterBeastman

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:55 AM

OP, thanks for posting exactly what my opinion of D2 is.

I agree with every point you made (except your mistake on how Stun works).

D2 feels like a Toy'R'Us game compared to D1.



#14 radiskull

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:09 PM

MasterBeastman said:

OP, thanks for posting exactly what my opinion of D2 is.

I agree with every point you made (except your mistake on how Stun works).

D2 feels like a Toy'R'Us game compared to D1.

Yes. WE KNOW.



#15 RagePeon

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:36 PM

radiskull said:

MasterBeastman said:

 

OP, thanks for posting exactly what my opinion of D2 is.

I agree with every point you made (except your mistake on how Stun works).

D2 feels like a Toy'R'Us game compared to D1.

 

 

Yes. WE KNOW.

 

Was this done in Chester Cheetah's voice?



#16 Triu

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 06:50 PM

MasterBeastman said:

D2 feels like a Toy'R'Us game compared to D1.


 

 

Great, now I no longer have to play Candyland with my nieces, nephews, and younger cousins!  I can just drop by TRU and pick up a copy of D2E, or chess, and start right in with those.  When they get a couple of years older, we can switch to an old Avalon Hill game like Gettysburg.



#17 svarun

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 08:09 PM

 Yes i was wrong about the stun but that is only due to the poorly written text on the card… 

I don t understand why you consider my post trolling i just shared my opinion, and i explained why that is so …

The other argument i think is worth mentioning is that in the D2 forum i see no know names from people that contributed most to D1 FAQ  and that speaks on my behalf …  Go figure why that is so …

Clearly D2 has a different audience than D1…even though you may call D1 unbalanced it did not matter that much in my experience  … it was more about making the right play in the given situation with the resources you had at the time, and the thing was tha game gave you loads of options  … and i think the more you really understood the game the more balanced it became, because you got to understand where the real threats were…

And don t be to smart on me if you have not played D1 



#18 Triu

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 09:06 PM

svarun said:

But descent second edition, its just horrible… first of all they took pretty much all the good parts from descent 1 and threw them away, just to make a simpler more comercial game suitable for kids..


You have some valid criticisms of the game, many of which have been echoed by other players. I had more of an issue with your tone and presentation, rather than specific points you made.

I have not played the original Descent, but I have been playing board and card games for over 40 years, and role playing games on and off since the ‘70s. I picked up this game because it seemed to be a good hybrid of my interests. I can understand that fans of the original version may disagree with the design changes that FFG decided to make. Keeping the same name is a pretty obvious marketing ploy, but it doesn’t seem like FFG tried to hide the fact that this was a major revision.  This is not just a reprint with cleaned up rules.


svarun said:

Yes i was wrong about the stun but that is only due to the poorly written text on the card…


Many people have no problem with the text on this card. It is easy to misread, but made sense to me when I read it closely. Language is an imperfect tool, especially when trying to balance clarity and brevity.
 

 



#19 Warrior of Myth

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:28 PM

@ Triu

Gettysburg was awesome! W00t

@ many other people (to include the OP)

Descent 1st Ed was the mainstay of my gaming night for several years and I can say with a certainty that we loved it. I can also say with a certainty that I am well versed in 1st Ed. We played every expansion and ran one shot quests and season long campaigns. By the time we put the dice down almost every game piece had factory ink worn thin. As much as I reserve a place of honor for Descent 1st Ed, I am frimly of the position that it is/was a VASTLY flawed game. It had a great theme and huge doses of satisfying strategical decision making to be sure. But the mechanics of the game, to me, seemed always to vaguely fight against the fun. Threat management wasn't very difficult, nor often meaningful, but just a token slog. The spawning mechanic, though fun at first, became just another annoying factor that drew out hero turns to the far reaches of space/time. The quests were uninspired for the most part and the glyphs of transport were one of several game mechanics that killed what little immersion/believability the game had. I GREATLY enjoyed Descent 1st Ed, but….

Descent 2nd Ed is in my opinion far superior. It is just more fun. Choices are more meaningful, heroes can fill roles with far greater effect, the quests are actually interesting, the sculpts are not done by 7 year olds, reinforcing is much more believable, there are attribute tests, abilities are more intuitive and fun, the tiles look cooler, the defense dice are more like Heroquest (which is always a good thing), and my monster/hero collection is even bigger than it was before! Strategically, the game is just as deep as 1st Ed, just less clunky. The only drawback is that having just been released, 2nd Ed is not nearly as "rich" as 1st Ed was with all of the expansion stuff thrown in. Though there is already one of those on the way. Which, by the way, I must mention I am very pleased with. I like the idea of a small expansion with numerous additions to enhance the game. Plus, with only a few models, I will not have to go into seclusion in the West wing for a month to paint them.

 



#20 superklaus

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 11:22 PM

Yeah. I agree, Gethisburgh was a great (and one of the first - a granddaddy of our hobby) AH game.

Regarding the complaint of the TO, well I hope that we never play in a one group. My taste what a good game should consist of is totally different than his. Descent 2nd edition has

 

-better and deeper tactics,

-plays faster and has

-better components.

 

Its vastly superior in every aspect to clunky and unbalanced 1st edition.






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