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#1 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 05:10 PM

I need custom dice why?

I'm apparently an incompetent GM who can't tell a story, so I get to toss all my real dice and use special dice that tell my story for me? Dice are a resolution mechanic, not a storytelling mechanic. 

Neither I nor any of my players are going to shell out cash for dice that are completely unusable for anything other than one game.

If the final game requires a set of utterly useless dice, as much as I hate to say it, it may be a no go from the beginning. 

This is a very sad, sad turn of events.

 

The more I think about how this system will function with custom dice, the worse and worse the outlook is becoming. 



#2 JerusalemJones

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:01 PM

Sad to hear you say that. I had a similar attitude when I first started to play FFG's Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play, but after playing with the dice I really got into the flavor of what they offered to the game. Sure, the same effect can be generated with regular dice, but there was something wild about rolling "boons" along with my hammers to see how much damage I was doing in combat, or my success rate at "persuading" npcs to do what I ask. From what I understand, these are the same dice used for X-Wing, so one set per playgroup should work out fine. Hopefully the dice add to the game, and I have faith that they will, based on my experience with WHRP.



#3 $hamrock

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:13 PM

HI!  I've been a lurker on these boards for a long time, very seldom do I post.  For whatever reason, your post has prompted me to say something…

While I believe you're entitled to your opinion, and it is very valid, I have to wonder if you ever stopped to think why the "custom dice" occur.  Why the cards, why the punch out health tokens, etc…

Undoubtedly, by your tone, this isn't your first dance with an RPG.  I am not going to presume how long you have been into the hobby, but I can tell you I have been in it for close to 30 years.  Like you, I was kinda put off by the "stupid dice", I don't like mixing my card games/dice games/ MMOs or any other games with my RPGs.  

Then I tried it out, with WHFRP, and I gotta say it is pretty dam cool, once you learn it.  The dice don't tell the story for you, they just tell you when events can transpire.  Rather then have the player roll stealth, and the gm roll notice as separate events, this system rolls them into one, rolled by the player.  It short cuts a mechanic.  Rather then have the GM counting rounds to tell him when the dragon's breath weapon is ready, the dice tell him on the attack roll.  (NOTE: the GM is under no obligation to use the breath weapon from that roll, and may opt to use it the next round or whenever, but it is easier to use it when it's available.)  It is still up to the GM to tell the story.   Having the cards, stat out my skills/talents/etc… right there next to me, it saves me a ton of time having to look them up, it also saves some money because the entire group can play with one book (as players don't need to look something up)… It isn't "new", D&D did this years ago with the mage/priest cards.  I want to say that was 2ed edition, but don't quote me on it.

Anyway, I digress from the point, the "why"…  You may, or may not, be aware of this but remember when 4th edition D&D came out a few years ago?  Remember the stressing of street dates?  Did you know that a month before it came out, it was available, word for word, from  torrets. How many sales did Hasbro miss out on because people just downloaded their own copies and never paid for a thing?  Perhaps it's the very reason why so many smaller companies go belly up.  Same with most RPGs these days.  I could get the entire Pazio collection, free, the entire 40K line, etc… (Not that I would ever use, or support, such activities, but most people these days don't support the same outlook as I do).  Look what it has done for the music industry.  I won't be shocked if this beta book was available, free, before Gen Con ended.   That said, you know what I can't download?  The "stupid dice" I need to play the game.  

This is almost sheer genius, to be honest.  They made a mechanic, adapted it to rpgs, and made it so a person had to at least purchase one of the products to be able to enjoy the ones they didn't pay for.  After I realized this, and took into account all the problems the industry is currently having, (RPGs are not on too many people's x-mas lists these days), I kinda support it!

Anyway, that's my .02,  Again I totally see your point as well, heck I shared it up until a few months ago,

 

Rob



#4 Tensen01

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 12:25 AM

Personally, my problem with Custom dice is not an issue of being complicated, it's an issue of what happens when the game is out of print? Up until very recently FUDGE dice were very very difficult to find.

I think custom Dice, unless the main game will come with a set, is also a huge barrier of entry to new gamers.



#5 Tensen01

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 01:01 AM

However, now seeing this: dicemonkey.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/A0hjLFcCMAAxDCd.jpg-large.jpeg I am less and less looking forward to this.

Some people have a hard enough time with d20, I can't begin to imagine trying to explain this system to new gamers.



#6 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 03:01 AM

Tensen01 said:

However, now seeing this: dicemonkey.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/A0hjLFcCMAAxDCd.jpg-large.jpeg I am less and less looking forward to this.

Some people have a hard enough time with d20, I can't begin to imagine trying to explain this system to new gamers.

So 14 custom dice…. That's even worse.

The WHFRP3 dice set is 12 dice for $12. So we could be looking at 14 dice for $14. That is something none of my players will be willing to shell out for. As for sharing around the table, that will slow things down and in general just cause trouble.

These are far from being the same dice used in the X-Wing miniature game.

 

@$hamrock - I have been playing RPG's almost 30 years myself. I do not want anything but pencil, paper, and dice to play. Counters, cards, and other boardgame artifacts are not something I need or want, they should be left in board games. Cards can be useful as an optional aid, not a required piece of kit. Required additional purchases are never a good idea, nor are they consumer friendly. 

I am generally a supporter of FFG, but in this case I will probably have to disappoint my players greatly by telling them, we will not be playing the new Star Wars RPG. I had run a 5 year long campaign with the D20 (3.X) Star Wars and had gotten excited about starting up a new game(in a better system). I guess that won't be happening unless I adapt another system for my own needs.



#7 trunkmonkee1971

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 03:33 AM

That pic from dicemonkey.net just solidified my disappointment with this game. If the game requires that you keep up with your stats using tokens and the like it will only get worse.



#8 $hamrock

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:27 AM

So looking at the pic. there is a grand total of 8 symbols that a person needs to know, to be able to play.  That is WHFRP!  Bet the symbols, while graphically different, mean the same things.  14 dice, but it looks like they are repeats of the same dice.  The extra dice are probably to represent damage from light sabers and heavy weapons, being higher damage ratios then anything in WH.  

If I may take another counter point to some of the arguments on here, many of which I held.

Dice:  I have dice, I don't want/need more.  I agree, fully, however I ask  how many sets of dice (and errant dice) do you own?  All anyone "needs" for about any game is one set and a few extra die 6. Now, I can only speak for myself, and the people I have played with in the past (maybe 50 or so, not counting conventions), but I have around 16 sets of dice, almost everyone I have ever played with has many sets of dice.   In fact the only time I have ever seen anyone with one set of dice is when they are completely new to the hobby.   I had this same argument, it kinda muted itself.

 

Dice cost:  12-14 bucks, guessing the second.  As a point of reference I am going to use groups I play with that play 2 other popular games.  Pathfinder, and D&D.  In pathfinder I play with 6 other people.  With the exception of myself, they each have a copy of the "advanced players guide", the main book, the martial book/spell caster book, the race guide, the second PHB thing, and computer programs on the IPods for each, and we all have a sets of dice.  Just a rough guess, I would say the buy in was north of 100, each player. Not that they had to buy any of it, but they all did. D&D is much the same picture, many of the players have several books that advance the players abilities, options, talents, races, etc… again I would guess each paid somewhere north of 100.   Now the WHFRP campaign I have recently gotten into.  There are 4 players and the GM.  The main game came with 3 sets of dice, two of the players bought sets (at 12 bucks, each).  That's it!  There are no copies of game guides, there are not manuals of x-powers, etc… it is all the players have.  We do, however chip in on books/box sets for the GM. 

Cards/progression:  they just make it easier, and non-munchkin-able.  The player classes are insanely balanced.  While I love WEG amd even the 3.75 version by WotC, I will be the first to say that the balance of classes is almost nonexistent, sure there is a white buffalo in them, here and there, but it is the exception, not the norm. I have yet to find a FFG RPG that has those issues.  Heck, the made space marine, and rogue trader a completely different products to avoid that (and undoubtedly to make money). I would almost be willing to guess that is what they are doing here, moving the soldiers and jedi, who would completely outclass the rogues, away from them. 

Don't want to use cards: One is under no obligation to "use" the cards, they can write the info on the character sheet, old school, if they wish, its really the same as reading and copying from the book, except you take it off the card, instead.  Instead of turning the card to show you "used that skill" this round, you would just have to keep track of it manually.  (Again note: I have no clue if this thing even needs cards, I hope it does because of how easy they, the cards, made everything but I have seen no indication that it does).

In my head, at least, this looks to be the SW game I have been waiting for.  A setting without a ton of Jedi, player characters that are not "munchkined" to death (really good at shooting, but couldn't read, jump, fly, swim, etc… to save their live), all with a contribution to the group (not just holding the torch for the mage/fighter), with an unquestionable evil, and a reason to, rebel against it.  All the while having mechanics that the GM doesn't have to fudge the results of, and the players can't fudge.   That's just me though, I tend to like the greater challenges in my games.  

Hopefully they found that middle ground for stormtroopers, not impossible to take out, but at least partially representing how they managed to conquer the 2/3rds of the known galaxy… WotC never achieved that with the minion rules, it was like one player character to 12 troopers, when one to 2 or 3 would be more reasonable.  

Anyway, I hope some of you doubters give the demo a shot, at least one at the local hobby store. I will be running one here in San Antonio, and anyone interested are welcome to send me a message and I will get the where/when to you.  In the case that you're all right, well then I'm puttered out of 42.00 for the beta.  Anyway, I will write a review of it when I get my teeth into it, and let ya'll know.

 

 



#9 Musclewizard

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:51 AM

Tensen01 said:

However, now seeing this: dicemonkey.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/A0hjLFcCMAAxDCd.jpg-large.jpeg I am less and less looking forward to this.

Some people have a hard enough time with d20, I can't begin to imagine trying to explain this system to new gamers.

I have to say I'm quite disappointed. The announcement of this game came out of nowhere for me but some of my players have been bugging me for quite some time for a Star Wars game. So understandably I was pleasently supprised when I saw the news but having to use such a variety of specialty dice that can only be used for a single game is a deal breaker for me. Weird, game specific symbols are very unintuitive as compared to numbers (high = good, low = bad) and I really hope that at some point in the future someone can come up with some sort of replacement system for this that uses more traditional dice. Or this might just turn out like WFRPG 3e with lots of tokens and other stuff that I'm not really interested in.
I'm still interested in everything this game has to offer besides dice mechanics though.



#10 cd8dman

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:47 AM

This argument is almost a carbon copy of the argument that came out with WFRP3e.  Here are my comments on that:

1.  Warhammer 2e was a decent system loved by many.  This change fractured the community.

2.  WFRP3e dice mechanic scared me, then intrigued me, then grabbed me.  It works surprising well especially for roleplaying.

3.  I don't like the cards, chits, tokens aspect that the WFRP came with.  I know people argue that you don't have to use it and I agree that you dont but I still dont care for having to purchase it.  They did eventually fix this issue partially by releasing the hard bound books but that move created its own wave of issues.

OK, so with that in mind, here are my hopes.

1.  Stick to the books and if they really want to offer cards, use the PoD system or other standalone supplement to do so.  Don't package that stuff with things I need to play the game.  That they are releasing books seems to indicate at least part of this is happening.

2.  I don't mind the dice mechanic.  I would be a nice bonus if they included a regular dice variant but I guess I don't really care that I would be buying additional dice.  I have lots of dice, whats 14 more?

3.  The three setting thing bothers me.  This is a style that has been used for 40k.  And it does seem to work but I absolutely hate the idea of buying the core rulebook mutlple times.  The real rub here is that it does seem to be a profitable way to market these things.  It allows the "new player" market to occur frequently, still supports the past players, 95% of the material is usable in each of the "settings".  This is likely something they will continue to take advantage of.

4.  Give me a damn digital character sheet right away.  I love paper, don't get me wrong, but I like to keep the "master" copy of each of my characters' sheets in digital format, it would be nice if this wasn't something I had to find in the community. 



#11 MILLANDSON

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 08:09 AM

As I mentioned elsewhere, the main rules apparently come with a table showing what numbers on a standard dice correlate with what symbol, so you can use standard dice without ever using the special ones - you don't need to buy special dice to play the game.


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#12 CanadianPittbull

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 08:30 AM

 I have a solution. Pick your favourite RPG system and convert Star Wars to it. For the rest there is Star Wars Saga or for us old schoolers there is our Star Wars D6. :P 



#13 cd8dman

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 08:55 AM

CanadianPittbull said:

 I have a solution. Pick your favourite RPG system and convert Star Wars to it. For the rest there is Star Wars Saga or for us old schoolers there is our Star Wars D6. :P 

 

That sounds like work….. 



#14 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 09:46 AM

MILLANDSON said:

As I mentioned elsewhere, the main rules apparently come with a table showing what numbers on a standard dice correlate with what symbol, so you can use standard dice without ever using the special ones - you don't need to buy special dice to play the game.

Because that is quick and convenient.



#15 Callidon

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 10:55 AM

 

Thank the maker FFG didn't try and foist another d100 system on the world.  I think the funky dice are much easier to learn than knee-jerk hate may lead people to believe (WFRP rocks as previously noted).  Also, it's a new game system for the SAME intellectual property that has been recycled and reprinted five times already in two and a half other systems.  Don't want to learn a new one?  Guess what?  The rebellion era is the same as it was in 1988 when we were playing WEG d6 (except the source books were better written back then ).  Nothing wrong with sticking with an older game system to play star wars.

 

 


STUFF:

Edge of the Empire: Talent Trees; Force Powers; Character Sheet

 


#16 MILLANDSON

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 01:21 PM

ItsUncertainWho said:

MILLANDSON said:

 

As I mentioned elsewhere, the main rules apparently come with a table showing what numbers on a standard dice correlate with what symbol, so you can use standard dice without ever using the special ones - you don't need to buy special dice to play the game.

 

 

Because that is quick and convenient.

If learning to interpret what dice rolls mean in a new game (which, if it's a new system, you have to do anyway) is that big of a deal, then I don't know what to say. I did it with WHFRP 3ed (because I bought the game in PDF form initially), and normal dice worked fine for that, and after a little while, it was easy to interpret the results of a roll.


~Yea, Tho I Walk Through The Valley Of The Shadow Of Death, I Shall Fear No Evil~

 

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#17 UndeadToast

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 02:51 PM

I applaud Fantasy Flight Games for breaking away from the conventional RPG structure and trying something new. I have been turned off by RPGs ever since the D20 system came out and made all gaming generic. The fact of the matter is, if you are a Star Wars fan you will play on any system. I made due with D20 for over 10 years. I wasnt happy about it but endured because I love the Star Wars universe and wanted to run games for my fellow fans.

If you are purchasing the beta you dont need to buy dice, the game comes with stickers to use for now. That means i'll have to sacrifice a couple of the many dice sets I own….oh no, I think i'll survive. I can't wait to purchase the official dice set. I'll probably get 2. As a gamer you can never have too many dice. As others have said, there is a conversion chart so you can use your own dice without purchasing anything.

I think people should give it a try before completely dismissing something new. I can't wait to get my hands on this game and form my own EDUCATED opinion based on experience and not speculation.



#18 MonsieurChoc

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 03:08 PM

 I liked WHFRP 3, and I always thought it would go well for Star Wars. While I understand that many do not like that choice, I personally am happy with it and can't wait for my copy of the book to arrive.

I might even buy new dices specifically to put the stickers on, instead of using dices I already own.



#19 MILLANDSON

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 03:50 PM

Glad to see some people willing to try it, rather than dismiss it out of hand


~Yea, Tho I Walk Through The Valley Of The Shadow Of Death, I Shall Fear No Evil~

 

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#20 flyingcircus

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 04:09 PM

ItsUncertainWho said:

I need custom dice why?

I'm apparently an incompetent GM who can't tell a story, so I get to toss all my real dice and use special dice that tell my story for me? Dice are a resolution mechanic, not a storytelling mechanic. 

Neither I nor any of my players are going to shell out cash for dice that are completely unusable for anything other than one game.

If the final game requires a set of utterly useless dice, as much as I hate to say it, it may be a no go from the beginning. 

This is a very sad, sad turn of events.

 

The more I think about how this system will function with custom dice, the worse and worse the outlook is becoming. 

 






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