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Do we really need three stand-alone games?


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#1 TheMouthOfSauron

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 02:14 PM

  I've been looking forward to the announcement of a Star Wars RPG since FFG got the licence, and while I like what I see there is one thing about the way the game is structured that irks me.

 Releasing three core rulebooks, for 'stand-alone' games, just seems like a waste of time and space. I like how White Wolf did their games, by having a core rulebook and then individual books for the different core systems (Vampire, Changeling, etc). That way, when you bought a new core rulebook you got 100% new stuff.

 The way the Star Wars game looks like it's going to be done, each time we get a new rulebook it will just have reprints of core rules, skills, combat, blah, blah, blah. While this structure doesn't seem to have harmed the 40k line, that system focuses on totally different aspects of the 40k world, whereas the Star Wars game looks like each core rulebook will just introduce new elements to the same world.

 Surely gamers would be better served by having one core rulebook (The Star Wars RPG), and then supplemental books (Edge of the Empire could be the first) to expand the universe they play in. It seems odd to me that a game like this will likely have no rules for the Force until book three, likely not released for another two years after the first book!

 As an aside, I was hoping to see some Clone Wars era stuff, but I guess that will be a separate game many years in the future…

 

 

 



#2 GM Chris

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 03:16 PM

It has been clarified that these are not "unique" stand-alones.  All three can be used seamlessly.  No work, no fuss… SEAMLESSLY.  :)  But, you can still only buy one, and use it standalone, if you want.

Plus, each core book will have numerous supplements for it.  Think of how the do their LCGs (this is a poor direct analogy); like the LotR LCG.  They release a new core cycle set twice a year, with numerous supplements for it.

 


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#3 NathanPButler

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 03:31 PM

My first reaction was the same: "Why three?" 

However, I think the logic is sound. Part of what kept me out of the WEG RPG back when I was much, much younger was the price, given that you had to get the rulebook, then supplements over and over, if you wanted to specialize in a given direction. It seems they are sort of creating three hybrids of rulebook/guidebook to get people off on the right foot, starting out on their particular path, rather than having to specialize after already buying a core rulebook.



#4 jordiver2

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 04:53 PM

 UGH. Three Corebooks covering Core RULES.

No, I'm not forgetting that it will have 3 different "settings," but really?!!?

"Seamless" rules has been stated before for 40k, to various levels of like-minded "UGH."

NathanPButler makes a fair point, I'll give you that. Some people hate playing Jedi, "To hell with that Force and Destiny book, I'm only buying Edge of the Empire. I love me some bounty huntin'!" I can dig that… to a degree.

My proposition? Compromise.

One book to rule them all… couldn't help it. Make THE COREBOOK. Give it a setting. I'm grooving with this Edge of the Empire thing, throw that in there. Or Age of the Rebellion. Whatev. Then make the other "lines" into game lines, or whatever. AoR books coming out, no big deal. F&D books coming out too? ool beans, pick those up.

Or what the new Marvel RPG is doing, well… something similar. One rulebook, no frills, no setting, an introductory adventure. Fantasy Flight LOVES throwing in adventures. Then the separate lines can come in deluxe versions or base versions. Edge deluxe comes with a corebook, Edge basic comes with just the setting specific stuff, like races or what have you. Same with Age and F&D.



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Posted 17 August 2012 - 04:59 PM

 I can only assume the 40k RPGs have worked out really well for them.



#6 VagrantWhisper

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 05:10 PM

GM Chris said:

Plus, each core book will have numerous supplements for it.  

 

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This is my only real issue … while I certainly don't think it has harmed the 40K line to do the same, per se, I do think even that line is starting to really collapse under it's own weight if you're a setting junkie or collector.

The 40K line was also supposed to be a "3 Core Game" line, and we're at what … 5 now?  Each with the requisite GM screen, Bestiary, 3 part adventure, player supplement, etc. In a matter a few years that RPG line is upwards of like 50+ products.

While it sounds appealing at first, I know from experience with the 40K line that following the line can get overwhelming when all 3 start pumping out supplements on a regular basis.

Otherwise, sounds cool, and if you are the GM Chris I think you are, I can't wait to hear you guys dig into the game.  Personally, the $30 Beta fee is a bit steep for me, but I'll be paying attention from the outside.



#7 Peacekeeper_b

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 12:13 AM

No we dont need 3 versions. Especially since it will be 3 years before you see force users as a option. And dont forget, its FFG, so we will get a 4th book (The Empire), a 5th game (Wookies) and so forth over and over.

And that means a new $40 buy in play test as well.

If it wasnt for Dust I would seriously boycot FFG these days. I am all for a capitalist company trying to make money, but his is just insulting.



#8 Ludlov Thadwin of Sevenpiecks

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 12:48 AM

My reaction is a mixture of excitement and disappointment. I'm excited that they're doing it and that they're taking the best part of WFRP3 (the custom storytelling dice) without a lot of the more cumbersome elements of that game.

I'm also excited that it looks like they're going to have a great visual style, focusing entirely on painted artwork rather than movie stills.

However, I am very disappointed that the game for the foreseeable future solely focuses on the rebellion era. This may shock some people, but it's actually my least favorite Star Wars era. Personally, I really just want to run an Old Republic game focusing heavily on the more fantasy aspects of Star Wars (ancient Jedi holocrons, Sith ghosts, things like that). Those elements are what I dig most about Star Wars and I'm afraid it's simply going to be impossible or at least unnecessarily hard to run a game like that in this system until… Some as yet unmentioned fourth or fifth installment of the system?

 


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#9 awayputurwpn

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 05:04 AM

Ludlov Thadwin of Sevenpiecks said:

However, I am very disappointed that the game for the foreseeable future solely focuses on the rebellion era. This may shock some people, but it's actually my least favorite Star Wars era. 

*Collective gasp*

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#10 Manchu

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 03:44 PM

I'm very excited for the three books.  I think the Star Wars franchise has faced a problem in the last decade with being overly monolithic.  It's a big universe.  Not every story needs a Mandalorian bounty hunter who is also a Jedi Knight oh and by the way he's also an ace fighter pilot and has a custom X-Wing that is more maneuverable than a TIE interceptor … or even if that character is split into three and becomes "the party" … it's just gotten to be very flat.  The idea of sectioning out the universe a bit more, making a space for the world of crime here and the world of the Rebellion there and the world of the Jedi survivors over there, to me that makes the universe feel bigger.  And in an era where we have seen virtually every possible aspect of the Star Wars universe in a game, or comic, or novel, etc, etc, etc, Star Wars badly needs to feel big and mysterious again.  Anyway, that's just my take and why I am excited.  For others, it's not Star Wars unless your party has a Jedi and a Mando -- or a Jedi Mando.  And that's fine, too.  Thankfully, one will also be able to do that with this product line.



#11 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 06:40 PM

Ludlov Thadwin of Sevenpiecks said:

However, I am very disappointed that the game for the foreseeable future solely focuses on the rebellion era.  

I've never understood why this is an issue. With only a few exceptions, the elements of Star Wars are pretty consistent no matter what era you are in. Are stormtroopers really that much different from clonetroopers/sith troopers/republic soldiers/rebel soldiers/etc? Occasionally you have an odd element (Seperatist battle-droids, Yuuzhan Vong), but for the most part you just need:

  • Good guy soldier
  • Bad guy soldier
  • Jedi
  • Sith
  • Bounty Hunter
  • Scoundrel/Smuggler
  • Noble
  • Fringe Character/Scout
  • Techie
  • Droid

It's all pretty much the same from there. Tatooine is always a desert. Coruscant is always a city. What else do you need?


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#12 jordiver2

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:05 PM

Doc, the Weasel said:

Ludlov Thadwin of Sevenpiecks said:

 

However, I am very disappointed that the game for the foreseeable future solely focuses on the rebellion era.  

 

 

Occasionally you have an odd element (Seperatist battle-droids, Yuuzhan Vong), but for the most part … It's all pretty much the same from there. Tatooine is always a desert. Coruscant is always a city. What else do you need?

Wow, I'm gonna nerd out here, but Tatooine was not always a desert, and thanks to the Yuuzhan Vong, Coruscant is not always a city.

But that has nothing to do with the price of tea in Spain. (sorry, Im actually pretty bad with phrases, but I love bashing them in)

You are absolutely correct -- well, mostly, but you know what I mean. At the heart of each era, Star Wars still holds the quintessential elements needed for a tale of heroes overcoming their own inner demons, and externalizing that to rescue the galaxy. I'm sure this game and it's cousin games can be easily ported to other eras. There might be a bit more difficulty making Clone Wars general heroes using the Age of Rebellion and Force & Destiny books, but I get the feeling it could be done.

On the other hand, one of the things I really did like about FFG's multiple 40k lines were their thematically focused settings, with the right tone to match. I figure that's going to be the good reason to get 2 or more corebooks, for their settings. I hope each one will tell their own tales, with enough wiggle room to tell a few stories that might just break to mood every now and then, release the tension. And I think era specific settings will be really cool, as well.



#13 awayputurwpn

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:08 PM

Doc, the Weasel said:

Ludlov Thadwin of Sevenpiecks said:

 

However, I am very disappointed that the game for the foreseeable future solely focuses on the rebellion era.  

 

 

I've never understood why this is an issue. With only a few exceptions, the elements of Star Wars are pretty consistent no matter what era you are in. Are stormtroopers really that much different from clonetroopers/sith troopers/republic soldiers/rebel soldiers/etc? Occasionally you have an odd element (Seperatist battle-droids, Yuuzhan Vong), but for the most part you just need:

  • Good guy soldier
  • Bad guy soldier
  • Jedi
  • Sith
  • Bounty Hunter
  • Scoundrel/Smuggler
  • Noble
  • Fringe Character/Scout
  • Techie
  • Droid

It's all pretty much the same from there. Tatooine is always a desert. Coruscant is always a city. What else do you need?

This.

If you are a Star Wars fan, you should know how to change out story elements for a different era, and in my experience it's never that difficult to just call one thing something else (like instead of a TIE fighter, we've got a Sith Fighter). 



#14 BrashFink

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:17 PM

Actually at first my gut reaction was… what the… 3 CORE books? But the more I think about it, I think this is kind of genius. Each of these types of campaigns have a completely different feel to them. On to of that, they will cover different locals. One thing you need to keep in mind is they have said repeatedly that the Beta book does not contain really any of the Flavor stuff… this means locations, weapons, etc. The beta book has a very loose bit for weapons and vehicles, etc. I imagine that the final books of each will have these things very specific to what it covers.



#15 Malifer

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:05 AM

Now my understanding about 40k (i don't know much) is that it works because you would not want to play a Rogue Trader in a Deathwatch game you could because of the rules but doesn't fit the style of game that each Core Book is for. So it is actually works well to not charge the fans that want to play a Deathwatch game double by making them buy Black Crusade to get the core rules.

However in a Star Wars game (for some reason) your group might get the idea to have a Smuggler, Jedi, and Rebel Soldier/Princess.

For that you will need all three books Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion and Force & Destiny. Each will have the core rules and all are set in the Darth Vader-y Era. So you don't even get a different timeline?

This is the most disappointing part of the FFG release. I don't need 3 sets of core rules.

I don't mind the dice I was actually hoping for a Warhammer Fantasy geek porn box set style with little cardboard Stormtroopers, cards, etc. Something that would have been entirely different for a SW game.

I gotta say Saga Edition never looked so good and at used price of $50 bucks still cheaper than 3 core rulebooks.

And it hurts me to say this because I am a FFG fan-boy, Arkham Horror is my favorite boardgame.



#16 lupex

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:54 AM

What some people seem to keep forgetting is that the core books will come out a year apart, it would be a completly differnt ball game if they were all released within a couple of months.  As others have said this will allow the development team plenty of time to work on the mechanics for truly epic jedi play that won't get in the way if we are all happy playing with our merry band of smugglers. 

But the thought of a fringe book, a rebel book and a jedi book coming out over a few years has got my creative juices going, I will start out with a group of gray characters with questionable morals, lead them into contact with the rebels by running guns etc but lead them into realising that they must eventually pick a side in the war and then head towards one of the characters discovering his jedi heritage and taking the fight to the emperor.  This will combine all aspecxts of the new core books, obviously we don't know what other supplements will add wrinkles to this story along the way.

I am also assuming that each book will have a finetuned set of rules mechanics developed using the feedback that we have provided along the way.



#17 Tensen01

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:07 AM

Malifer said:

Now my understanding about 40k (i don't know much) is that it works because you would not want to play a Rogue Trader in a Deathwatch game you could because of the rules but doesn't fit the style of game that each Core Book is for. So it is actually works well to not charge the fans that want to play a Deathwatch game double by making them buy Black Crusade to get the core rules.

However in a Star Wars game (for some reason) your group might get the idea to have a Smuggler, Jedi, and Rebel Soldier/Princess.

For that you will need all three books Edge of the Empire, Age of Rebellion and Force & Destiny. Each will have the core rules and all are set in the Darth Vader-y Era. So you don't even get a different timeline?

This is the most disappointing part of the FFG release. I don't need 3 sets of core rules.

I don't mind the dice I was actually hoping for a Warhammer Fantasy geek porn box set style with little cardboard Stormtroopers, cards, etc. Something that would have been entirely different for a SW game.

I gotta say Saga Edition never looked so good and at used price of $50 bucks still cheaper than 3 core rulebooks.

And it hurts me to say this because I am a FFG fan-boy, Arkham Horror is my favorite boardgame.

Exactly. The 40k books worked because each one was, despite a shared setting and system, a unique game. Star Wars is not like that. Everyone should be given the chance to play, from the get-go, whatever type of character they may want to play.

I will not say SAGA is a perfect Star Wars game, it's not. But what's nice about it, and WEG before it is this: You can buy one book, and play really whatever type of character you could really want to play. The later Saga books, other than adding a few new options for each class, really only offered fluff and Races. They didn't add new classes that you were being deprived of if you didn't buy that book. That's not me putting them down, that's saying that the core SAGA book is all you ever really need. One book.

Whether YOU personally(The collective "you") care for Jedi or not, there are tons of people who do and they should be allowed to play those characters to the fullest and have that fun without having to wait 3 years.

It simply doesn't make sense from either a setting or business sense… Unless the business plan is simply "Three books means more money." and I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt… But doing so simply tells me they have no clue what they're doing. I don't know which is worse.



#18 Malifer

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:20 AM

Tensen01 said:

 

Exactly. The 40k books worked because each one was, despite a shared setting and system, a unique game. Star Wars is not like that. Everyone should be given the chance to play, from the get-go, whatever type of character they may want to play.

I will not say SAGA is a perfect Star Wars game, it's not. But what's nice about it, and WEG before it is this: You can buy one book, and play really whatever type of character you could really want to play. The later Saga books, other than adding a few new options for each class, really only offered fluff and Races. They didn't add new classes that you were being deprived of if you didn't buy that book. That's not me putting them down, that's saying that the core SAGA book is all you ever really need. One book.

Whether YOU personally(The collective "you") care for Jedi or not, there are tons of people who do and they should be allowed to play those characters to the fullest and have that fun without having to wait 3 years.

It simply doesn't make sense from either a setting or business sense… Unless the business plan is simply "Three books means more money." and I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt… But doing so simply tells me they have no clue what they're doing. I don't know which is worse.

I concur completely.

I have players that would play a jedi every time, and ones that never will.

This also really makes me love the Savage Worlds model. One affordable Core Book for $9.99, then pick up whatever supplements and settings you want for $15-20.

I am not talking about the rules of the game, although I am keen on Savage Worlds, but just the affordability and not buying multiple books with the same rules.

 



#19 Venthrac

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:21 AM

It seems pretty simle to me. With three standalone games, you can just buy one book and have everything you need. If this were, say, D&D4E you might have to buy multiple books, say the first Player's Guide (for the rules) and then one of the later PGs if you wanted to play a race or class that was in that book.



#20 Malifer

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:35 AM

Venthrac said:

It seems pretty simle to me. With three standalone games, you can just buy one book and have everything you need. If this were, say, D&D4E you might have to buy multiple books, say the first Player's Guide (for the rules) and then one of the later PGs if you wanted to play a race or class that was in that book.

But that is everything you need for one style of play.

Star Wars like Fantasy, or even the some of the Kurasawa films, it's a hodgepodge of characters on an adventure.

I wouldn't run a  Lord of the Rings Rpg with only Hobbits in the Shire. It could be done, probably has been. But someone will want to play Gimli or Aragorn. Sorry you need another rule book for that. If someone else wants to be Gandalf or Legolas well that's another rulebook.

And the kicker is these aren't supplement books there full priced core rulebooks that will have stuff you already purchased.

Sure if all I want to run is a Noir smuggler campaign set in Star Wars, then the one book is all I need. 

But if I want to re-create the film as a game I need all three books just to put Obi-wan, Luke, Han Solo, and Lea all on the same hunk of junk.






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