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Arvel Worldwalker's Hero Ability & Traveling


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#1 any2cards

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 11:46 AM

This question deals with the hero Arvel Worldwalker.

Her Hero Ability states the following:

"When you fail an attribute test, you may reroll it.  Limit once per round".

When used specifically in a quest, our interpretation of a round is one hero turn, one OL turn.

How, however, does this apply when traveling prior to starting the quest?  If, for instance, you are traveling a distance of 4, resulting in 4 travel cards being selected, can she use her Hero Ability once per each travel card requiring an attribute check, or is it just once per travel period, or can she not use it at all while traveling?
 



#2 KristoffStark

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 12:11 PM

any2cards said:

This question deals with the hero Arvel Worldwalker.

Her Hero Ability states the following:

"When you fail an attribute test, you may reroll it.  Limit once per round".

When used specifically in a quest, our interpretation of a round is one hero turn, one OL turn.

How, however, does this apply when traveling prior to starting the quest?  If, for instance, you are traveling a distance of 4, resulting in 4 travel cards being selected, can she use her Hero Ability once per each travel card requiring an attribute check, or is it just once per travel period, or can she not use it at all while traveling?
 

My personal feeling is that once during traveling would be the most appropriate.



#3 Steve-O

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 01:10 PM

A "game round" is a specifically defined mechanical term.  It refers to one complete cycle of hero turns followed by an Overlord turn, and it is defined in the basic game (ie: no campaign rules included.)  The "Travel Step" is part of an extra set of optional rules which are not part of the core rules of the game, therefore, I don't believe there are any "rounds" when traveling so Arvel's ability can't be used at all.

In fact, I would be inclined to argue that NO Hero Abilities may be used during the Travel Step (in the name of fairness, mostly) as Skills and Abilities in general are part of the core rules, not part of the optional campaign rules.

Having said that, I would agree that this is a question worthy of asking in an FAQ.  I would ask about Skills and Abilities in general first, and then more specifically about those skills and abilities which explicitly refer to "rounds" or "turns."

Edit: I would also ask for a specific list of which campaign "steps" abilities can be used in, and how to differentiate them if you can't use anything anywhere.



#4 any2cards

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 03:38 PM

Steve-O said:

A "game round" is a specifically defined mechanical term.  It refers to one complete cycle of hero turns followed by an Overlord turn, and it is defined in the basic game (ie: no campaign rules included.)  The "Travel Step" is part of an extra set of optional rules which are not part of the core rules of the game, therefore, I don't believe there are any "rounds" when traveling so Arvel's ability can't be used at all.

In fact, I would be inclined to argue that NO Hero Abilities may be used during the Travel Step (in the name of fairness, mostly) as Skills and Abilities in general are part of the core rules, not part of the optional campaign rules.

Having said that, I would agree that this is a question worthy of asking in an FAQ.  I would ask about Skills and Abilities in general first, and then more specifically about those skills and abilities which explicitly refer to "rounds" or "turns."

Edit: I would also ask for a specific list of which campaign "steps" abilities can be used in, and how to differentiate them if you can't use anything anywhere.

I would love to see ANY Descent game come with a Glossary defining all key terms, relevant items, etc.  Would be nice … perhaps then, we wouldn't have half the questions in the FAQ that we do.



#5 Triu

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 04:48 AM

Steve-O said:

A "game round" is a specifically defined mechanical term.  It refers to one complete cycle of hero turns followed by an Overlord turn, and it is defined in the basic game …

Until FFG gives a ruling, rounds aren't defined in the context of travel, nor does it specify if abilities refresh at the start or end of a round.  You can (1) disallow them during travel, (2) allow them once during travel [put a marker on the ability] and refresh them at the start of the first round, or (3) not refresh them until the end of the first round -- meaning it would not be available on the hero's first turn.  The last would be a compromise of sorts.



#6 Terah

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 03:29 AM

This doesn't really answer the OP's question - but Arvel's Feat is almost exactly the same as the Lucky Charm item. In the dungeon they function identically. Lucky Charm seems like it could be used once while traveling, just exhaust it.



#7 RagePeon

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 04:55 PM

 I have a 3-step process for when things like this come up when playing.  Maybe it will be helpful:

Step 1  Re-Check the Rules:  Make sure you didn't miss something; look for relevant entries in the rule book that might reference the area of gameplay you are in.

Step 2  Common Sense:  When the rules are not clear, look for "the spirit" of the rules.  Generally there's an intent behind the rules that can be gleaned from similar rules/abilities.  If something feels too strong, it's probably the wrong idea.

Step 3  Logical Houseruling:  If you are still without a clear answer (don't worry, this step happens a lot with Descent!) break it down with "real-world" logic, and then temper it with "game-world" balance.  My process for this instance looks like this:  

 

The ability refreshes once per round.  A round is defined within a combat setting, Heroes move, OL moves.  Since a round of combat is fairly quick (moving 4 steps, swing a sword once; doesn't take but a few seconds), it stands to reason that the ability does not take a long "period of time" to recover.  Now, what are we talking about while traveling?  Moving great distances, which would take a great deal of time.  So it stands to reason that the ability would refresh between each "node" of travel.  

Logical breakdown conclusion: Ability once per card.

However in actual gameplay you may find that this is too strong (I don't know, haven't gone thru this myself).  If so, perhaps temper the frequency to require 1 travel period of "rest" before using it again.  IE: If I use it on my 1st traveling node, I must not use it on the 2nd, and it will be ready on the 3rd.  

 

Official ruling would be great, of course.  But until then, I hope this is helpful.



#8 Triu

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 05:41 PM

My reaction was more in terms of play balance than timing / realism.  Just off-the-cuff, I think it would be unbalancing in the hero's favor, allowing them to avoid negative consequences more often (unless you think Arvel is underpowered and really needs the help).  I don't have enough experience to confirm that feeling.



#9 any2cards

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 05:47 PM

RagePeon said:

 I have a 3-step process for when things like this come up when playing.  Maybe it will be helpful:

Step 1  Re-Check the Rules:  Make sure you didn't miss something; look for relevant entries in the rule book that might reference the area of gameplay you are in.

Step 2  Common Sense:  When the rules are not clear, look for "the spirit" of the rules.  Generally there's an intent behind the rules that can be gleaned from similar rules/abilities.  If something feels too strong, it's probably the wrong idea.

Step 3  Logical Houseruling:  If you are still without a clear answer (don't worry, this step happens a lot with Descent!) break it down with "real-world" logic, and then temper it with "game-world" balance.  My process for this instance looks like this:  

 

The ability refreshes once per round.  A round is defined within a combat setting, Heroes move, OL moves.  Since a round of combat is fairly quick (moving 4 steps, swing a sword once; doesn't take but a few seconds), it stands to reason that the ability does not take a long "period of time" to recover.  Now, what are we talking about while traveling?  Moving great distances, which would take a great deal of time.  So it stands to reason that the ability would refresh between each "node" of travel.  

Logical breakdown conclusion: Ability once per card.

However in actual gameplay you may find that this is too strong (I don't know, haven't gone thru this myself).  If so, perhaps temper the frequency to require 1 travel period of "rest" before using it again.  IE: If I use it on my 1st traveling node, I must not use it on the 2nd, and it will be ready on the 3rd.  

 Official ruling would be great, of course.  But until then, I hope this is helpful.

I want to make sure that you understand I appreciate your feedback up front.  It does, however, make we wonder if you play FFG games much.  If you do, then you should know that the number one thing you never do with their games is start to guess the "intent" or "spirit" of a thing.

I have played their games for so many years, and have seen them come out with FAQs ruling first one way, and then changing their minds in the next update, that to guess their intent is never a good idea.

In this particular case, there are no rules one way or another, I seem to play with more lawyers than anything else, and I play with people who love debating.  A very bad combination with as loose as FFG's terminology is, their poor consistency, etc.

Never the less, you make some good points.  For now, pending any official ruling, we are allowing Arvel to use her reroll ability once per travel stop.  I have been keeping track during the campaign, and it has amounted to a complete wash.



#10 Terah

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:40 AM

"I hear you're known as The Worldwalker."

"I am."

"Any good at traveling?"

"Hell no."



#11 KristoffStark

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 05:04 AM

RagePeon said:

The ability refreshes once per round.  A round is defined within a combat setting, Heroes move, OL moves.  Since a round of combat is fairly quick (moving 4 steps, swing a sword once; doesn't take but a few seconds), it stands to reason that the ability does not take a long "period of time" to recover.  Now, what are we talking about while traveling?  Moving great distances, which would take a great deal of time.  So it stands to reason that the ability would refresh between each "node" of travel.  

Logical breakdown conclusion: Ability once per card.

However in actual gameplay you may find that this is too strong (I don't know, haven't gone thru this myself).  If so, perhaps temper the frequency to require 1 travel period of "rest" before using it again.  IE: If I use it on my 1st traveling node, I must not use it on the 2nd, and it will be ready on the 3rd.  

 

Official ruling would be great, of course.  But until then, I hope this is helpful.

Well, a Rest action can be taken as part of a Hero turn, which also seems a relatively small "period of time."

Does that mean you allow Heroes to take rest actions and recover fatigue during travel?  If so, I would suggest that it makes the fatigue possibly suffered through travel cards kind of pointless.



#12 Rico

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 12:07 PM

Your Heroic abilities are used for quests. Traveling is not a quest, it is a step in the overall "Campaign Phase" which prepares the scene and the heroes for the upcoming quest. You don't use any abilities during this step of he Campaign Phase. Also, as noted on Page 22 of the rule book "Any damage, fatigue, or condition the heroes suffer from events is carried over to the quest."



#13 any2cards

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Posted 20 August 2012 - 03:22 PM

Rico said:

Your Heroic abilities are used for quests. Traveling is not a quest, it is a step in the overall "Campaign Phase" which prepares the scene and the heroes for the upcoming quest. You don't use any abilities during this step of he Campaign Phase. Also, as noted on Page 22 of the rule book "Any damage, fatigue, or condition the heroes suffer from events is carried over to the quest."

I challenge you to lead me to one single page, paragraph, and/or sentence within the rules or the quest guide which specifically states that abilities are only used for quests and not traveling.  Further, show me where it states that something like Lucky Charm, which allows for the re-roll of attribute tests cannot be used during traveling.  You can't.  It doesn't exist.  Tis the reason for an FAQ question.

I don't have a problem with you or others offering an opinion, but do not state it in absolutes when it is not possible to do so.



#14 Straangeer

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Posted 04 February 2013 - 09:34 AM

HEROIC FEAT: Use on your turn to discard 1 of your hero skills. Immediately gain any number of hero skills from your Class deck worth the same amount of experience points as the discarded skill.

So if Arvel Worldwalker discard a hero skill card what is worth 3 experience points, she can choose 3 cards from her deck.

My question:

Is this heroic feat last for the end of her current turn ( at the end of her turn she must give back all of the new cards and the card what she sacrificed is given back and she can use that in the next turn) or this heroic feat is permanent, so she must keep the new cards for the end of the encounter?!



#15 Steve-O

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 01:10 AM

Straangeer said:

HEROIC FEAT: Use on your turn to discard 1 of your hero skills. Immediately gain any number of hero skills from your Class deck worth the same amount of experience points as the discarded skill.

So if Arvel Worldwalker discard a hero skill card what is worth 3 experience points, she can choose 3 cards from her deck.

She could choose three cards worth 1 XP each.  Or she could choose one card worth 1 XP and one card worth 2 XP.  Etc.

If you want to be a lawyer about it, though, it says to pick cards worth the same amount of XP (not "at most the same amount"), so if she was unable to pick cards worth exactly the same amount as the one card she discarded (because she bought too many with XP normally), the ability couldn't be used.

 

Straangeer said:

My question:

Is this heroic feat last for the end of her current turn ( at the end of her turn she must give back all of the new cards and the card what she sacrificed is given back and she can use that in the next turn) or this heroic feat is permanent, so she must keep the new cards for the end of the encounter?!

I would be inclined to think that the effect is permanent for the rest of the campaign.  If the effect were meant to end, I would expect the text to tell us that we should swap back the old cards after X amount of time.

From a game balance perspective, she (in theory) hasn't "gained" anything since the card she dropped and the card(s) she gained were worth the same amount of XP.  Of course, there's always the possibility that certain skill cards are over/under-priced in XP, but that's an error on the skill card, not an error in this feat.



#16 Straangeer

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Posted 05 February 2013 - 02:57 AM

Thank you for the reply!






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