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Weapon Ranges


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#1 kjakan

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:42 AM

Ok, let's see if I got this straight:

  • Point Blank (+30): Up to 2m
  • Short Range (+10): Up to range x 1/2,
  • "Medium Range" (+0): ???
  • Long Range (-10): Over range x2
  • Extreme range (-30): Over range x3
  • Maximum range: Cannot shoot further than range x4

With an Astartes Bolter (range 100m)

  • Point Blank: 0 - 2 m
  • Short Range: 2 - 50 m
  • "Medium Range": 50 - 200 m
  • Long range: 200 - 300 m
  • Extreme range: 300 - 400 m

Is this correct?

It seems very strange to me that the weapon range does mark a range band boundary, that the weapon's "effective" range is in fact twice it's nominal range.

-K



#2 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:13 PM

Is this correct?

It seems very strange to me that the weapon range does mark a range band boundary, that the weapon's "effective" range is in fact twice it's nominal range.

Yes.

Think of the listed range of each weapon as it's optimal engagement range.



#3 herichimo

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 03:09 PM

kjakan said:

Is this correct?

It seems very strange to me that the weapon range does mark a range band boundary, that the weapon's "effective" range is in fact twice it's nominal range.

-K

Effective range is a little more than just "how easily is it for me to hit a target", especially considering the firer's experience and abilities. Using the same weapon an olympic marksman is going to be able to hit targets much further away than a guy whose never fired a gun before. The ranges listed are therefore the effective ranges of the weapon itself, how far the weapon still has a chance to hit a target.

If you are thinking, why is there a maximum range consider, if you let players shoot infinite range you'd have guys dying from submachine gun hits at 2 miles out… There is also ballistic energy to consider, eventually a bullet just won't have enough speed to be a threat to anything. For a projectice like a Bolt round which is thick but short and fired out of a short barreled weapon, once the sustainer motor dies the bolt is going to drastically bleed off its velocity. Then there is actual accuracy, some guns just aren't accurate to hit targets past certain ranges, no matter how well you aim.

The US military determines effective ranges based upon a weapons ability to reliably hit a target of a certain size ballistically.
The M-16 can engage a point target, which is a human sized target, out to 550 meters
It can hit an area target, which is a large group of human targets, out to 800 meters
The maximum range an M-16 bullet travels after being fired from an M-16 is 3,600 meters

But even the best marksman is unlikely to hit a point target past 550 meters, this is because at that range the bullet fired has a greater chance to miss than hit even if zeroed, perfectly aimed, and mechanically fired.

Effective range is unchanged, even in a vaccuum. With no resistance the bullet will continue to go off into infinity, but the weapons accuracy still means it has a greater chance to miss than hit past it's effective range.

Even if a weapon can shoot farther than it's effective range this doesn't mean you have an ice cube's chance in hell of hitting something that far away. And just because a shooter lacks the skill to shoot targets at longer ranges doesn't mean the weapon isn't effective at long reange. I think, with a few exceptions, FFG did very well concerning weapon ranges.



#4 kjakan

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 01:03 AM

Thank you for your input.

My question is not about wether or not firearms have the ability to send a bullet beyond the maximum range, but rather concerned the way the weapon's range is used to define range bands. When I first read through the rules I barely glanced at the rules for ranges, and I assumed them to be something like this:

  • Short range: Up to rng x 1/2
  • Medium range: Up to rng x 1
  • Long range: Up to rng x 2
  • Extreme range: Up to rng x 4

This made enough sense to me that I didn't think to challenge it closer until I had a closer look at the Long Range and Extreme Range descriptions themselves and realized I was mistaken.

(It seems very odd to me to use a formulae for working out range bands where the basis of the formula isn't actually used in the game. It's a lot like defining a set of weapon's characteristics where "Weight" actually means half the weight of the weapon, or "Clip size" is the double of the actual clip size!)

Even though the same system appears to be in use in both Rogue Trader and Black Crusade, I can't quite shake the feeling that the games designer meant to write this differently…

-K

 

 



#5 herichimo

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 03:12 AM

Are you stating you believe all the range bands should be of equal distance?

i.e.
PB 0-2
SR 2-100
MR 100-200
LR 200-300
ER 300-400

If so, I still agree with the way FFG did it. "Medium" or "normal" range would probably be larger than the other ranges. Things get harder to hit really fast the farther they are from you, so I can't see short range being more than what it is now. I can easily believe the range at which the weapon "lives in" would be larger than others. Generally, if this is your difficulty with the ranges, I don't really see anything wrong with FFG's ranging distances.

If this isn't even what you're having problems with, I guess I'm not helping you much am I?



#6 Face Eater

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 05:50 AM

kjakan said:

 

  • Short range: Up to rng x 1/2
  • Medium range: Up to rng x 1
  • Long range: Up to rng x 2
  • Extreme range: Up to rng x 4

This made enough sense to me that I didn't think to challenge it closer until I had a closer look at the Long Range and Extreme Range descriptions themselves and realized I was mistaken.

This is actually how I though it was initially, and even when I had read I never bothered to correct it. For a basic weapon it ends up with;

  • SR   50m
  • MR 100m
  • LR  200m
  • ER 400m

Which isn't correct as per RAW but makes sense, as Herichimo said it gets real difficult to hit things quite quickly as they get farther away but there's are whole big range band where's it's pretty much as difficult as it's going to get.  



#7 Gaire

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 05:56 AM

 Your numbers are correct, yes. And yeah, their method of listing ranges is rather odd. I blame it on Black Industries.



#8 borithan

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:01 AM

Though Black Industries initial position was that maximum range was 10x the basic range (if I remember correctly the initial printings didn't actually give a maximum range, just saying "from more than 3 time the range to maximum range". An errata said that maximum range was 10x range). Not sure why FFG limited it much more than it was.

I have to say the whole range thing has never bothered me. I didn't mind that it was just a value for a formula, rather than a fixed value used for something itself.

And isn't Point Blank up to 3 metres away, rather than 2?



#9 Naviward

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:05 AM

Face Eater said:

kjakan said:

 

 

  • Short range: Up to rng x 1/2
  • Medium range: Up to rng x 1
  • Long range: Up to rng x 2
  • Extreme range: Up to rng x 4

This made enough sense to me that I didn't think to challenge it closer until I had a closer look at the Long Range and Extreme Range descriptions themselves and realized I was mistaken.

 

 

This is actually how I though it was initially, and even when I had read I never bothered to correct it. For a basic weapon it ends up with;

  • SR   50m
  • MR 100m
  • LR  200m
  • ER 400m

Which isn't correct as per RAW but makes sense, as Herichimo said it gets real difficult to hit things quite quickly as they get farther away but there's are whole big range band where's it's pretty much as difficult as it's going to get.  

I'm the same. We actually play it like this rather than medium range being up to twice the weapon ranges. As well as being easier to work with it means you actually have weapons firing at long range once in a while, so the long range talents and weapon upgrades actually have a use.



#10 kjakan

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 01:52 AM

borithan said:

 

And isn't Point Blank up to 3 metres away, rather than 2?

 

 

Dark Heresy appears to use 3m for Point Blank. Deathwatch uses 2m.

Ranges don't really appear to be a core consideration in the game: Rogue Trader, Deathwatch and Black Crusade defines the maximum range of weapons in the Armoury section where they describe the Range characteristic of weapons, and Point Blank Range, Sort Range and Extreme Range are all defined as exceptional combat circumstances in the Combat section. "Medium Range" is not defined at all.

-K



#11 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 01:04 AM

Naviward said:

 

I'm the same. We actually play it like this rather than medium range being up to twice the weapon ranges. As well as being easier to work with it means you actually have weapons firing at long range once in a while, so the long range talents and weapon upgrades actually have a use.

What ranges are in play depends entirely on how the GM sets up the situation. Extreme range for a bolt pistol starts at 90 meters. 300 FEET. That is not far away at all.



#12 herichimo

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 11:01 PM

Its a pistol.

Pistols are short ranged, they are lucky to have effective ranges of 100 feet.

Nothing to complain about.



#13 bogi_khaosa

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 05:10 AM

herichimo said:

Its a pistol.

Pistols are short ranged, they are lucky to have effective ranges of 100 feet.

Nothing to complain about.

I'm not complaining at all, just saying that it is easy for a GM to construct a situation in which people are firing at long or extreme range, or targets are out of range entirely.



#14 Naviward

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 11:23 AM

bogi_khaosa said:

 

Naviward said:

 

 

I'm the same. We actually play it like this rather than medium range being up to twice the weapon ranges. As well as being easier to work with it means you actually have weapons firing at long range once in a while, so the long range talents and weapon upgrades actually have a use.

 

 

What ranges are in play depends entirely on how the GM sets up the situation. Extreme range for a bolt pistol starts at 90 meters. 300 FEET. That is not far away at all.

 

 

You're right, the GM can setup the scenerio to play to longer ranges if need be (part of my reason for this adjustment is that we always play with minitures and measure ranges on the tabletop so it helps keep the scale a little more sensible).

That said, I still prefer the feel of just being able to look at the range value as the maximum for an unmodified shot, rather than it being some value that needs to be adjusted before it applies. A minor thing ultimately, but one that certainly helps with the feel of the system.






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