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Flaw in rules ? stamina and movement


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#1 Rasiel

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:09 AM

hi,

First i take a look at heroes in the game and i just wonder … its a bit weird that hero can use stamina for movement instead of taking action … what i mean is this.

It is often more useful to choose Rest action instead of Move, and move by playing stamina. Your stamina gets refreshed at the end of your turn so it doesnt matter you waste all of it for moving.

I dont like this at all. Heroes use this flaw in rules to rest every turn there is monster nearby, so they can use their stamina abilities, get near the monster to attack it and finally restore their stamina back to full. Again and again and again ….

Also, some heroes have more stamina than they have movement points … i thought it will be their disadvantage not to move as fast as other heroes … but no … Grisban for example has 4 stamina and 3 movement points … he can easily use rest action, move 4 squares for his 4 stamina … and regain stamina at the end of his round. Do whatever as 2nd action ….

Very much dont like it … it should be resource for heroes not as easily recovered, saved for special moments, not to use it all every * turn.

what do you think ?



#2 MasterBeastman

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:24 AM

It's a valid tactic. Fatigue is supposed to be used, not saved for later.

What you can do as Overlord is play Trip Wire (I think) - the one where if they are moving with fatigue then they get stunned.

Plus, if they're burning all their fatigue to move then they don't have any left for special attacks.

It's useful and effective, but not a flaw in the rules.



#3 jjcole

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:29 AM

 Plus leaving yourself with no stamina at the end of every turn opens you up to taking a lot of extra wounds due to inflicted fatigue, Words of Misery, etc.



#4 hooliganj

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 04:06 AM

Even without cards like Trip Wire and Word of Misery that can mess up any heroes who have no stamina left, if the heroes are spending half of *every* turn resting, the overlord has a strong advantage in the most important metric in the game - efficient use of actions. Also, the heroes aren't going to get very far in their fight against the overlord and his minions if they don't use their skills.

So there may be situations where doing a full move with fatigue is the better than spending an action, but in general there are better uses for both fatigue and actions.



#5 Rico

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 04:47 AM

Also, don't forget the ultimate advantage heros have over the OL - two attack actions! If your heros are constantly blowing half their actions to rest they are missing prime damage opportunities. I would be thrilled as an OL if my group played like yours!

From experience on bothe sides of the Descent 2e fence I can tell you that your worries about fatigue abuse are nothing to concern yourself with. I have had several games where the OL clobbered this style of play as well as the opposite where heros desperately need to rest but circumstances prevent it… which is a great feeling as an OL.



#6 Rasiel

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 06:11 AM

but i dont have these cards at the start of the game to punish them for using all stamina … and sure they can move and use stamina for skills, just make 1 step less to save it for special ability. even then, its not that punishable for what they get out of it … moving more than their movement speed every turn or move and attack with fatigue to use for special ability …

I dont know i dont like this when heroes do that …really guys its annoying



#7 KristoffStark

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:24 AM

Rasiel said:

I dont know i dont like this when heroes do that …really guys its annoying

I'm sorry you feel that way, but I don't see it as a design flaw.  It's just part of the game.  In one of the campaigns I'm playing as OL, the heroes each burn through 2-3 Fatigue a turn on abilities, so they don't use much for movement.



#8 Columbob

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 07:30 AM

The game was always meant to be played like this, even in first edition.



#9 Skywalker

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 09:08 AM

I don't see it as a design flaw or annoying. The tactic is not without cost even as a base premise before you start throwing in cards.



#10 Steve-O

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:06 PM

Skywalker said:

 

I don't see it as a design flaw or annoying. The tactic is not without cost even as a base premise before you start throwing in cards.

 

 

I agree.

Efficient use of fatigue is key to the heroes' strategy.  It's definitely a game-changer.  However, no strategy is without counter by the OL.  It may take some learning, especially if you aren't familiar with 1e and how to manage high-fatigue heroes from that version, but it's not impossible either.



#11 ChimpMasaki

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 03:39 AM

 Ever since first edition knowing how to burn fatigue properly was one of the biggest kicks I got out of playing as the heroes. It's toned down a little in 2nd edition as it is not possible to spam fatigue potions.



#12 jcbbjjttt

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 03:45 AM

ChimpMasaki said:

It's toned down a little in 2nd edition as it is not possible to spam fatigue potions.

However, rest is more powerful in D2.



#13 oldtimer

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 04:40 AM

MasterBeastman said:

It's a valid tactic. Fatigue is supposed to be used, not saved for later.

What you can do as Overlord is play Trip Wire (I think) - the one where if they are moving with fatigue then they get stunned.

Plus, if they're burning all their fatigue to move then they don't have any left for special attacks.

It's useful and effective, but not a flaw in the rules.

 

Tripwire says "Play this card when a hero enters an empty space during a move action." so you cant play tripwire on the hero while he is using fatigue to move as its not considered a "move action". 

 

Pit Trap says "Play this card when a hero enters an empty space. …. … If he has no movement points to lose (such as if he suffered fatigue to move), he is Stunned." So you could try pit trap the hero when he uses up his last fatigue for movement and then spring the pit on him to try and stun. 



#14 schmoo34

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:31 AM

I've not found fatigue to be an issue either.  I agree that if you burn one of your two actions to "rest", you are giving my monsters a reprieve from multiple attacks.  As a hero, you only need to move one more step so you can be in line of sight, I find the fatigue rule to be fabulous in terms of allowing me to move and still get in two attacks.

 

Every game I've played, I've not found fatigue to be annoying as the OL, the battles are intense and exciting as it is.

 

As an OL, I get to pick the Merriod who uses a black die to defend with, or an ettin who uses two grey dice, or a shadow dragon who can't even be scratched unless you roll a surge.  Goblin archers with rediculous speed and can scamper.  I get a lot of advantages as an OL, and while I know I can't play shadow dragons every time due to open group symbols needing to match, I feel I have some great things to give me an advantage. 

 

Heroes can have their extra one or two steps…they have to roll both a surge and avoid a blue "X" in order to even hit me.  It all evens out and they do need two attacks if they are to stand any chance at all.

 

I did let my son play as the overlord and he is still quite young for the game.  He doesn't understand the subtlety and just picks monsters that look "cool" and I can exploit that…because I think the OL has to be very strategic and pick the right monsters for the quest as his open group.  They are either going to plug and defend, or race for the food, etc. etc.  A good OL is what you need to make the game fun…the fatigue thing doesn't ruin it…a bad OL ruins it.



#15 Spudman

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 05:36 AM

Rasiel said:

It is often more useful to choose Rest action instead of Move, and move by playing stamina. Your stamina gets refreshed at the end of your turn so it doesnt matter you waste all of it for moving.

 

I think this is where you're having a problem… Stamina doesn't automatically come back at the end of a hero's turn. There are a  few ways to regen fatigue, such as resting (1 action), using unused attack surges per point of fatigue, potions, etc.

 

It would be broken if your heros are getting fully replenished Stamina for each round.

 

Basically, one the very first turn, you can use your fatigue to move, and double move, which can give some characters quite the distance from the start (necessary for all the race style encounters), but by the second turn you are now out of stamina. You can rest as an action, but it doesn't usually give you any advantage as far as more movement, except in the case of Grisban (by your example), where his Stamina (4) is higher than his Speed (3).



#16 Robin

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Posted 05 October 2012 - 08:33 PM

Remeber that Rest restores your Stamina only at the END of your turn: you cannot rest, remove fatigue and fatigue move in one turn.

The most current immediate fatigue removals are by surge or by a potion.


An adventure is only an inconvenience rightly considered. An inconvenience is an adventure wrongly considered.
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#17 Velos

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 12:37 PM

Rasiel said:

hi,

First i take a look at heroes in the game and i just wonder … its a bit weird that hero can use stamina for movement instead of taking action … what i mean is this.

It is often more useful to choose Rest action instead of Move, and move by playing stamina. Your stamina gets refreshed at the end of your turn so it doesnt matter you waste all of it for moving.

I dont like this at all. Heroes use this flaw in rules to rest every turn there is monster nearby, so they can use their stamina abilities, get near the monster to attack it and finally restore their stamina back to full. Again and again and again ….

Also, some heroes have more stamina than they have movement points … i thought it will be their disadvantage not to move as fast as other heroes … but no … Grisban for example has 4 stamina and 3 movement points … he can easily use rest action, move 4 squares for his 4 stamina … and regain stamina at the end of his round. Do whatever as 2nd action ….

Very much dont like it … it should be resource for heroes not as easily recovered, saved for special moments, not to use it all every * turn.

what do you think ?

 

I'm not sure I see a benefit in playing this way. While it is possible I would not recommend it.

Instead of resting to regain all the spent stamina, why not just spend an action move your speed and keep full stamina? By spending all fatigue to move you are effectively running at a stamina "deficit" constantly. Like you said, stamina allows the heroes to move without spending an action (which incidentally frees the hero from the effects of things like "tripwire" since those cards can only be activated on a hero's move action, not movement from stamina) and to use special abilities and skills. Why in the world would you compromise the use of powerful skills and spells to use stamina as the primary mode of movement (other than avoiding a tripwire every now and then)? I would rather use fatigue to move a couple spaces then "double-attack" a monster, use it to cast the life-saving healing spell, or defend against stamina attacks by the OL. And if you should need to use a skill or defend against a stamina attack when using your method of movement,  you are reducing your movement ability to accommodate other stamina requirements.

Sure the heroes can easily and summarily use a rest action to get back stamina… But more often than not, actions are a commodity and one spent constantly each turn to recover stamina is not usually the best option in the heat of battle (and is terribly inefficient!). It seems from your post that your real problem is with the rest action, not with the fact that you can use stamina for movement . I have a hunch that the change in rules for the rest action was a necessary change from D1.0 to D2.0 in order to offset the lack of threat requirement to use the OL cards and a more rugged stamina requirement for most hero skill cards.

 



#18 AnimalKDR

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:36 AM

 I don't have the cards on me now, but what is Brother Glyr's stamina?  If its 4 or 5, he could take a rest action, move 6 squares (as far as he would with 2 moves), still have an action for an attack, and then recover all his stamina at the end of the turn.  He'd be immune to tripwire since he's not taking a move action.  Only counter the ok has is pit trap, and I think there's only in the deck.  Its not game changing, but its still cheesy



#19 Velos

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:57 AM

I am having a problem seeing the benefit of doing this (It might be there I just can't see it!  :)   ) Help me see the advantage.

Besides (potentially, with a couple of characters) getting an additional movement point or two and avoiding the occasional movement-triggered trap, the hero's behavior would be predictable, he/she would be potentially open to stamina attacks, and wouldn't always be able to use stamina if needed. Why not just use a movement action and keep your stamina? The stamina gained from a rest action is recovered at the end of the hero turn effectively leaving the hero without stamina from movement to end of turn.

I would definitely use this method if the occasion called for it (and I don't think it's cheating or shady), but as common behavior it would seem cumbersome and self-defeating. I mean, If I really wanted to get an extra movement point or two, I would rather use the stamina over the course of a few turns in conjunction with a move action, and then rest. That way I rest once every four turns or so instead of every turn… which leaves the hero with more combat options and better equipped to deal with OL attacks.

Am I missing something?



#20 AnimalKDR

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 08:48 AM

 Its not something you would do every turn, but if you had a character with high stamina and low movement, a rest/attack action is vastly superior to a move/attack action (assuming he started with full fatigue and doesn't need to move more than 3-5 spaces).  Since he will recover all fatigue at the end of the turn, this doesn't leave much of a window for inflicting stamina damage.  He is effectively immune to trip wire, and if he is smart enough to convert 1 more stamina to move than he needs, he is immune to the stun effects of pit trap as well.

I don't think you'll see it happen every turn, but I still think its pretty cheesy.  I don't think its enough to change any rules… unless you want to house rule rest actions prevent further spending of fatigue for movement, or only recover the amount of fatigue missing at the time the action was taken






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