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Dear FFG, please stop forcing me to give you all my money


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#1 shorty_monster

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:30 PM

 As mentioned elsewhere, I'm already going to be getting the core rule book as soon as it comes out, and I have the money, but when I first thought about running an Imperial Guard game, this product hadn't even been mentioned. So, I bought dark Heresy, and the GM screen as they did at least have a guardsman career path. Now I'm going to end up buying the book, and another GM screen.

I don't really mind that much, but have you ever considered releasing a general 40k template rulebook and GM screen, and then releasing the different games you have as source material? It would mean people like myself without a great deal of disposable income could still pick up a greater quantity of teh products we want and love from you…



#2 borithan

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 12:02 AM

There are differences between the various lines in the 40k rpg series which mean that a GM screen would not work for all the games. Same applies to the rulebooks. There have been significant changes post Deathwatch that make the rules incompatible (without some house ruling).



#3 Shadow Walker

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:45 AM

shorty_monster said:

 As mentioned elsewhere, I'm already going to be getting the core rule book as soon as it comes out, and I have the money, but when I first thought about running an Imperial Guard game, this product hadn't even been mentioned. So, I bought dark Heresy, and the GM screen as they did at least have a guardsman career path. Now I'm going to end up buying the book, and another GM screen.

I don't really mind that much, but have you ever considered releasing a general 40k template rulebook and GM screen, and then releasing the different games you have as source material? It would mean people like myself without a great deal of disposable income could still pick up a greater quantity of teh products we want and love from you…

You are not the only one who would like to see 1 core w40k rpg rulebook and other books in form of supplements instead 5+ corebooks formula we have now. We had this discussion many times on this and many other w40k/rpg forums.



#4 shorty_monster

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 10:06 PM

 Then I'm sorry I'm late to the party. As mentioned I picked up the books because there was one specific story I wanted to tell. The argument that there are changes in the system between the settings isn't a very strong one, FFG designed these games, they could have easily designed the core rule, which do all run off the same basic system, to be totally modular, with little to no extra effort.



#5 H2SO4

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Posted 14 August 2012 - 11:02 PM

shorty_monster said:

 Then I'm sorry I'm late to the party. As mentioned I picked up the books because there was one specific story I wanted to tell. The argument that there are changes in the system between the settings isn't a very strong one, FFG designed these games, they could have easily designed the core rule, which do all run off the same basic system, to be totally modular, with little to no extra effort.

IIRC, FFG didn't design the system in Dark Heresy, it was originally made by Black Industries, FFG merely bought it when BI closed down. Thereafter they've  tweaked and redesigned the system in each following iteration.



#6 KommissarK

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 03:52 AM

shorty_monster said:

 Then I'm sorry I'm late to the party. As mentioned I picked up the books because there was one specific story I wanted to tell. The argument that there are changes in the system between the settings isn't a very strong one, FFG designed these games, they could have easily designed the core rule, which do all run off the same basic system, to be totally modular, with little to no extra effort.

A Kroot, a Commissar, and a Genestealer simply do not meet each other in a tavern in 40k, and decide to go "clear out" the Eye of Terror. The lines produced by FFG do an excellent job of finding the few situations where individuals of diverse backgrounds meet together to perform monumental tasks, within the 40k setting. It is meaningful to note at this point that 40k is one of those settings where for the average individual, life is quite restrictive. Further, it is quite uncommon for RPG sized groups of people to do much of anything interplanetary in the setting (this is of course assuming, that in a WH40k RPG, being able to go from planet to planet is something to be grasped). Therefore, settings tailored to these few groups that do have the ability to command their destiny are the ones we see the core books written about (well, up until we got OW, that one is a bit odd in this sense)

Also, note, your only "issue" here is about having to buy 2 cores, instead of 1 core and 1 splat book. And you're requesting a system where everyone has to buy at least 1 core and 1 splat, instead of just 1 core book. (this is assuming you're trying to point out the benefits of having a generic "Core Rules" which only explain the basics of how play works/combat/generic character creation/generic armoury/generic background, and then splat books that fill out the setting for a particularly workable theme (e.g. the Inquisition, Rogue Traders, the Deathwatch, Chaos Warbands, etc.)).

Core rules = $60 (of course, what you're asking for could be cheaper, but in all likelihood it would still have full combat, partial psychic, partial armoury, skills, talents, generic how to play, generic character creation, a "How to GM" section, a full fluff writeup of 40k, and probably a generic adversaries section. So I think $50-$60 is easily justified)
Splat Book = $40/$50 (varying by size. for what you're asking, $50 is entirely possible)

If everyone must buy 1 splat/1 core, its $100 to get started in the system.

If everyone must buy 1 core, then its $60 to get started. It is to the advantage of most people, to only have to buy 1 core. Those of us who desire to see more broader settings can just eat the $10 cost of buying a second core book.

Also, its a nice way to subtly alter the rules over time, DH's core rules are quite different from OW's core rules. You most certainly do not need to get the GM screen, the one for DH would still work quite well for your purposes.

Much of the spirit of the books would be lost as well, as they're often written to the theme of the setting. For example, read the section based on what happens when you suffer hand/foot/arm/leg/eye loss, it is hilarious, and quite notably, written for the specific setting. If the game went generic, this humor could easily be lost, and the core rulebook would quite likely become this dry thing that only details the mechanics. On the other hand, it could be bloated by trying to write to each "point of view" in the rules.



#7 Ferrous82

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 05:04 AM

From my experience and from what I have seen in other groups, a Space Marine, a Rogue Trader, his crew, and sometimes an Apostate do occasionally meet in a tavern and go around meeting and killing things. The funny thing is, its the Space Marine that is the odd man out, not the Apostate here. The Apostate hides within the group easily, and the GM gets a kick out it.

 

There is also the benefit of having the most up-to-date set of rules with each release. When Black Crusade came out, our group just became a Black Crusade game with Rogue Trader archetypes.

 

Meshing books is super easy. You can reverse engineer most Archetypes to fit any XP level.



#8 Cifer

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 11:17 AM

I agree that a single core book would be easier on the wallet - at least for all those people who buy system after system.
Then again, we now have effectively the only RPG in history that has gone through five editions within as many years. And frankly, now that we've come full circle and are again playing relatively ordinary imperial citizens, it's IMO easy to see how extremely the system has improved.



#9 Plushy

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Posted 27 August 2012 - 11:31 AM

Ferrous82 said:

From my experience and from what I have seen in other groups, a Space Marine, a Rogue Trader, his crew, and sometimes an Apostate do occasionally meet in a tavern and go around meeting and killing things. The funny thing is, its the Space Marine that is the odd man out, not the Apostate here. The Apostate hides within the group easily, and the GM gets a kick out it.

 

There is also the benefit of having the most up-to-date set of rules with each release. When Black Crusade came out, our group just became a Black Crusade game with Rogue Trader archetypes.

 

Meshing books is super easy. You can reverse engineer most Archetypes to fit any XP level.

 

This.

You can convert just about any starting career from the line so far into an Only War specialty in about half an hour. I've already done all of the Dark Heresy careers and am working through Rogue Trader now, with some half-assed work on the Deathwatch careers at a Black Crusade power level. It isn't too hard.


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

Please check out my Dark Heresy to Only War conversion! You can find it on the main Only War forum. I'm always looking for more people to playtest it!


#10 Kasatka

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Posted 31 August 2012 - 02:40 AM

 The counter-argument about being able to update the rules for each subsequent release are kind of moot… you can still do that in a splat book. The Only War supplement for the Generic 40k RP line could contain all modifications to the core rules neccessary to play Only War games.

World of Darkness does this with all of their products, whereby if you play a supernatural creature or something from a splat book then you get a different character sheet and some unique mechanics. The core rules stay the same however.

I see zero problem with FFG coming up with a universally compatible core book covering the 40k setting as a whole, and listing basic mechanics such as Attributes, Skills, Talents, base line Human characters, a basic Armoury, Experience, Combat, Injuries, Skill Tests, Opposed/Assisted Rolls, and even a spread of minor NPCs. Then each splat book can cover specifics of character generation for that specific setting, as well as unique armoury options, rules and enemies. Source books can still be brought out to further expand upon something, but could include options for ALL 40k RP lines. For example, the recent Lathe Worlds release for DH would have, under this proposed system, covered the fluff of Forge Worlds and then presented some unique armoury options and some character options for all the lines.

The reasoning that FFG have been tweaking the system with each release is fair, but it falls over a bit when we find each book has at least one instance where someone has copied and pasted an un-erratad entry from DH core, or something that references a now defunct mechanic or character option from a previous book. I think its obvious that FFG have wanted to move away from character classes with split advance trees - they moved towards classes without split trees, but then added in tons of alternate ranks. They then tried having parallel advance tables. Then we had a classless system that relied on a clunky alignment attribute. And now we have the aptitude system which with a little more work (such as a clearly laid out place for aptitudes and XP costs on the character sheet) could easily form a baseline for all future supplements.

Just no more 'alternate rank' options for classes please, just focus on additional skills and talents that are purchasable by anyone, and extra armoury and equipment options.


Only the insane have strength enough to prosper.

Only those that prosper may truly judge what is sane.


#11 Mantis Sine

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Posted 02 September 2012 - 06:14 AM

Kasatka said:

 The counter-argument about being able to update the rules for each subsequent release are kind of moot… you can still do that in a splat book. The Only War supplement for the Generic 40k RP line could contain all modifications to the core rules neccessary to play Only War games.

World of Darkness does this with all of their products, whereby if you play a supernatural creature or something from a splat book then you get a different character sheet and some unique mechanics. The core rules stay the same however.

I see zero problem with FFG coming up with a universally compatible core book covering the 40k setting as a whole, and listing basic mechanics such as Attributes, Skills, Talents, base line Human characters, a basic Armoury, Experience, Combat, Injuries, Skill Tests, Opposed/Assisted Rolls, and even a spread of minor NPCs. Then each splat book can cover specifics of character generation for that specific setting, as well as unique armoury options, rules and enemies. Source books can still be brought out to further expand upon something, but could include options for ALL 40k RP lines. For example, the recent Lathe Worlds release for DH would have, under this proposed system, covered the fluff of Forge Worlds and then presented some unique armoury options and some character options for all the lines.

The reasoning that FFG have been tweaking the system with each release is fair, but it falls over a bit when we find each book has at least one instance where someone has copied and pasted an un-erratad entry from DH core, or something that references a now defunct mechanic or character option from a previous book. I think its obvious that FFG have wanted to move away from character classes with split advance trees - they moved towards classes without split trees, but then added in tons of alternate ranks. They then tried having parallel advance tables. Then we had a classless system that relied on a clunky alignment attribute. And now we have the aptitude system which with a little more work (such as a clearly laid out place for aptitudes and XP costs on the character sheet) could easily form a baseline for all future supplements.

Just no more 'alternate rank' options for classes please, just focus on additional skills and talents that are purchasable by anyone, and extra armoury and equipment options.

 

Look at what happened with Palladium, blech!






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