Jump to content



Photo

Soldier 1 Unit Cards or Stats?


  • Please log in to reply
23 replies to this topic

#1 Americas Middle Finger

Americas Middle Finger

    Member

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 13 August 2012 - 10:04 AM

Oi! i'm new to the forum as well as the game… But I LOVE IT!!! I was hoping to see if anyone has info or ideas or even unofficial state cards for Soldier one infantry? can some one help me with this? I saw the unit cards for the Tanks and Super heores and i have down loaded some of them just was hoping to get some idea of Soldier 1 for Axis Allies and SSU… Thanks in advance!!!



#2 Guest_Not In Sample_*

Guest_Not In Sample_*
  • Guests

Posted 13 August 2012 - 11:51 AM

We dabbled with soldier 1 units. I bought a box of wargames factory American and German soldiers. 30 came in each box and I made up some rules for them. They would come in 10 man units for 16 points (they die super fast and only get at most 10-13 shots at soldier units if at full strength so needed to be cheap). We allowed you to take one of these units as a Support choice for every 200 points spent but they didn't take up one of your support choices. I even created a hero for each faction. For the Allies there was "Tommy Gunn" and for the axis it was "Herr Schmidt"… both had 2 submachine guns and were just soldier 1s with 3 wounds and 1 extra shot over what the soldier 1 unit did… None of the soldier 1 units could hurt soldier 3 units at all except for the Axis soldier 1 with MG who could put out one shot against soldier 3. The allied soldier 1s had a guy with grenades who could do higher damage as well.

We used them a few times… they fill out the table a bit and make the battle look bigger but are pretty much only good for that. All the real Dust models just throw soo many dice against soldier 1 and they only have one armour throw so they are only good at dying fast to be honest… but it did make the table look more full, and it made the soldier 2 units look like super soldiers as the wargames factory models are the slightest bit smaller and don't have any armour at all, just helmets so the armoured soldier 2s to them are what soldier 3s are to soldier 2s.

I turned a lot of the Germans into zombies for failsafe orders though I never really use them, and most of the Americans in the box are not even built… they are nice models though.



#3 Doraiya

Doraiya

    Member

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:24 PM

Strombole said:

We dabbled with soldier 1 units. I bought a box of wargames factory American and German soldiers. 30 came in each box and I made up some rules for them. They would come in 10 man units for 16 points (they die super fast and only get at most 10-13 shots at soldier units if at full strength so needed to be cheap). We allowed you to take one of these units as a Support choice for every 200 points spent but they didn't take up one of your support choices. I even created a hero for each faction. For the Allies there was "Tommy Gunn" and for the axis it was "Herr Schmidt"… both had 2 submachine guns and were just soldier 1s with 3 wounds and 1 extra shot over what the soldier 1 unit did… None of the soldier 1 units could hurt soldier 3 units at all except for the Axis soldier 1 with MG who could put out one shot against soldier 3. The allied soldier 1s had a guy with grenades who could do higher damage as well.

We used them a few times… they fill out the table a bit and make the battle look bigger but are pretty much only good for that. All the real Dust models just throw soo many dice against soldier 1 and they only have one armour throw so they are only good at dying fast to be honest… but it did make the table look more full, and it made the soldier 2 units look like super soldiers as the wargames factory models are the slightest bit smaller and don't have any armour at all, just helmets so the armoured soldier 2s to them are what soldier 3s are to soldier 2s.

I turned a lot of the Germans into zombies for failsafe orders though I never really use them, and most of the Americans in the box are not even built… they are nice models though.

How strong where there Weapon Lines Strombole? Sounds like they were using gimped weapons instead of the guns which have become standard issue in the world of Dust…



#4 Shadow4ce

Shadow4ce

    Member

  • Members
  • 645 posts

Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:33 PM

 I'm guessing the Soldier 1 Weapons were fine - same as Soldier 2s. But have you ever calculated how many dice the Grim Reapers or Lara & The Heavy Recon Grenadiers roll on Soldier 1s. Their attack value isn't the problem. It's a lack of viable survivabikity when faced with a regular enemy who rolls more dice than Kellogg's has Corn Flakes when being attacked. 



#5 Doraiya

Doraiya

    Member

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:11 PM

Shadow4ce said:

 I'm guessing the Soldier 1 Weapons were fine - same as Soldier 2s. But have you ever calculated how many dice the Grim Reapers or Lara & The Heavy Recon Grenadiers roll on Soldier 1s. Their attack value isn't the problem. It's a lack of viable survivabikity when faced with a regular enemy who rolls more dice than Kellogg's has Corn Flakes when being attacked. 

I can understand that, but the fact that they were using larger squads should've helped compensate for taking more hits from most weapon lines.

I'm super intrigued by this now, I was already coming up with ideas for a Japanese Axis Platoon, now I wanna look further into pre-VK Dust…



#6 deedob

deedob

    Member

  • Members
  • 81 posts

Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:11 AM

Paolo Parente said in an interview that Soldier Armour 1 had a problem in Dust Tactics and that they would *probably* require a 2nd edition of the game before being able to put them in.

If Dust Models doesn't put out the miniatures because of a Dust Tactics problem, then Dust Warfare is going to be even further down the road before we have them. Dust Warfare based it's number of dices for armour 1 on the Dust Tactics stats, which might change completely.

The only way i see armour 1 working is if they put ultra-cheap and very numerous per squad Vrill "swarm" units. Little aliens buggers that are numerous in size. Like Zerglings, Flood spores or whatever… As said, the sheer number of dices you can roll against them is ridiculous. attacking a squad with over 30 dices in one throw!



#7 Doraiya

Doraiya

    Member

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 14 August 2012 - 01:48 AM

 Ok guys I've been crunching numbers all night at work, and I'm kinda keen to share my thoughts on how Soldier 1 units could fit into the game…

The first thing to consider is their weaknesses. The obvious one is that most units roll twice as many dice against them, so this is rectified by making them cost around half as much as a similarly equipped squad. For example, a unit of ten soldier1 miniatures will loose the same percentage of their squad as five soldier2 miniatures. Their single armor roll certainly won't help the unit's survivability, but this could be rectified with a fieldcraft spec ops rule that allows then to benefit from another save while in cover (2 in soft, 3 in hard). This will make Spray weapons an ideal way to deal with them it this suits the overall dimensions of the unit and makes sense.

Now we consider their strengths. Since they carry twice as many guns, they're great at taking out other infantry, but poor against vehicles. They are good counters to phasers and lasers due to their large pool of health and disregard for armor and improved use of cover which is a safeguard against VK munitions.

So to sum it up, we could have a unit that adds to the meta by;

*sucking in the open, being awesome in cover

*strong attacking infantry, weak attacking armor

*strong resisting Phasers/Lasers, weak resisting Spray

*cool!



#8 Guest_Not In Sample_*

Guest_Not In Sample_*
  • Guests

Posted 14 August 2012 - 05:19 AM

I don't think I would let them have rules that allows them to be better at cover… they are a larger unit and would kind of be the less highly trained expendable grunts so that doesn't make any sense to me that they would be better than your more highly trained and equipped troops. The other problem is the models themselves. WW2 model kits don't have these soldiers carrying assault rifles with UGLs attached and laser/phaser guns, etc. These kits are pretty much just your basic riflemen with the odd submachinegun or MG toting soldier so unless you are going to do some serious conversions and destroy Dust models tyo give their guns to unarmoured WW2 models, they likely would not have the same advanced weaponry as the basic Dust models that we have…. unless you are just going to ignore the models appearance and just pretend they have the advanced Dust weapons. In the Dust universe there are the more mundane "real world" armaments being used on a large scale. Vk is very rare so advanced laser/Phaser wielding walkers are quite often joined by more mundane and "real" tracked tanks and equipment. Not even the Germans can equip all their soldiers with heavy armour suits and  laser guns.

Even if they did have the same exact weapons as the dust soldier 2 models, why should they then become comparable to a SSU combined squad of 10 for half the price? Not that they are with the additional rules you propose as no matter what you do they will still get obliterated the first time a unit in range breathes on them, but any attempt to artificially make them live longer should then come with a AP price increase. Giving 3 auto saves in hard cover gives them an unfair advantage for a unit that costs almost nothing for a large squad if they are also able to put out as many shots as their better equipped and better trained/higher costing bretheren. They should not get any advantages that a soldier 2 unit doesn't haveother than much cheaper cost which is the only way to balance them at all and make them even remotely usuable.

You put them in and they either die immediately at which point A) they didn't cost you many points at all which you feel are worth losing because B) that turn that the unit had to spend killing all of your soldier 1 unit is a turn that they were not shooting at one of your other units allowing a unit that is actually worthwhile to get into position to do what you need them to do. OR, you put them in and they don't die immediately as you get the first strike with them… they have a lot of guys in the units so you get a bunch of dice to throw from a unit that doesn't cost much and maybe they kill a guy or two. Then next turn they die fast and horribly which you don't care because A) they didn't cost much and already killed a guy or two getting back a lot of their points anyway and B) the turn wasted shooting them lets another one of your units to get into position, etc, etc.

To try to make them survivable and usable for the entire game makes no sense whatsoever and any attempt to artificially play with newly invented rules in order to do so is a mistake. It lessens the more standard Dust troops, the game mechanics, and the spirit of the game, in my opinion… Soldier 1s are meant to be meat shields… you stick them in front of a unit, they take a ridiculous amount of damage, they all die and time is bought for the real unit behind them… or, you send in another expendable wave after wave until something gets through… thats how soldier 1s should be in Dust… they shouldn't stand a chance against Lara and a unit of Heavy Recon Grenadiers…. period… if they can, it screws with the game, the fluff… everything.

They should either just be used as cheap meat suits or, as Paolo Parente said, need to wait for a second edition change to the rules mechanics that can allow them to exist in the universe other than to just be instantly dying meat suits.

My 2 cents anyway…. I have used them on the table before and they do have a use… to draw fire away from another unit as your opponent can't resist the urge to throw down two hand fulls of dice against them 40k style. Then they die and your actual Dust models get a turn's respite. For a cheap cost, they are good at being expendable and nothing more… any attempt to make them indispensable is a mistake, IMO.



#9 Americas Middle Finger

Americas Middle Finger

    Member

  • Members
  • 6 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 11:48 AM

So I guess no one has come up with a Soldier 1 Unit cards or stats that would work in some way?



#10 Guest_Not In Sample_*

Guest_Not In Sample_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 August 2012 - 03:40 PM

They work… but only as a distraction unit that draws fire so that another unit gets breathing room to do the real work… But I never made cards for them, just weapon stats and those were based off the guns they had in their hands based on the models I was using. They were american and german troops from wargames factory so I based the stats based on the guns that they were modelled with which are actually WW2 weaponry not alternate WW2 dust weaponry. So if you are looking for S1 stats using Dust guns you will have to come up with them yourself. Just price them at about half of what a soldier 2 unit would cost because they die fast.



#11 Doraiya

Doraiya

    Member

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 03:44 PM

Americas Middle Finger said:

So I guess no one has come up with a Soldier 1 Unit cards or stats that would work in some way?

I've got a profile worked out for an American Soldier 1 Unit written out, I'm just looking for some graphic resources to make the cards.



#12 Guest_Not In Sample_*

Guest_Not In Sample_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 August 2012 - 03:55 PM

I would be interested in seeing those cards when you make them as well. I wish I had photoshop and photoshop skills to go with it so I could make my own cards. Dust Warfare just plays soo much easier when you have stat cards with the skills printed out on them… at least for newer units you are still getting used to. I have most of my allies memorized at this point. I want to make some cards for Bushido ( a cool game with probably the third best models on the market right now) as well as I just bought a bunch of samurai and ashigaru models from wargames factory and want to make Bushido cards for them… Does anyone know of any free programs with photoshop type functionality?



#13 Dakkon426

Dakkon426

    Member

  • Members
  • 762 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 04:26 PM

I use a tool called gimp on occasion but its not nearly as feature rich as photoshop.

 www.gimp.org/ 



#14 Doraiya

Doraiya

    Member

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 05:23 PM

Bloody forum formatting… Attempt no.2 incomming.



#15 Guest_Not In Sample_*

Guest_Not In Sample_*
  • Guests

Posted 19 August 2012 - 06:53 PM

The card looks great and all… but you made them wayy overpowered… I mean WAYYY TOO POWERFUL! There's no way a soldier 1 unit should be that good at that price… no way. If they sat in hard cover they would be destroying the hell out of stuff within 16". I mean a spray weapon would roll 12 dice against them… fine.. thats an average of 4 hits, 3 automatically soaked up by cover and then even if they fail their save only one guy dies… In hard cover from a spray attack and only 1 soldier 1 guy out of 12 dies on average… thats crazy. You approached them as if they should be every bit as good and survivable as any other unit and then gave them great guns at a discount price and gave them super duper anti-suppression abilities (why not just say they can't be suppressed at all), ridiculously good cover abilities (I mean 6 of them can stand in the open giving you the finger and then they get 3 automatic saves). You gave them the advantages that are found in 2 man teams which have those advantages because they are 2 man teams and gave it to a 12 man team… then you gave them a medic as if the whole reversing suppression rolls just for being within 12" of  a hero (seriously???) wasn't elite enough… then you added fast on top of it!!!! Really? In many situations these guys will lose less men in hard cover than a soldier 3 heavily armed elite super high priced unit…. c'mon now…

 

You made them the most uber elite unit in the game with every rule you can think of and a few made up ones and then had the stones to call them "grunts"….

If I sound like I'm being overly critical, well, its because I am. This is why most people will never allow fanmade units to exist in a game… because most people just can't do it…. If you could see me right now I'd be shaking my head and giving you a look of derision….

I can't even remember a time when I was this hard on someone on the internet… but I'm sorry, this is soo full of fail its not funny. It doesn't make a lick of sense for half of these rules to exist and certainly not all on one unit… and certainly not on a soldier 1 units called "the grunts"… and definitely not for that amount of points….. Anyone that allows this unit to be played in a game is crazy. I mentioned a few posts ago that these kind of rules shouldn't exist on a soldier 1 unit, and they are even more ridiculous now than I could ever imagine…

Pure fail. I can't believe how hard I just was on these stats but I actually held back half of how I really felt to be honest.



#16 Doraiya

Doraiya

    Member

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:52 PM

Strombole said:

The card looks great and all… but you made them wayy overpowered… I mean WAYYY TOO POWERFUL! There's no way a soldier 1 unit should be that good at that price… no way. If they sat in hard cover they would be destroying the hell out of stuff within 16". I mean a spray weapon would roll 12 dice against them… fine.. thats an average of 4 hits, 3 automatically soaked up by cover and then even if they fail their save only one guy dies… In hard cover from a spray attack and only 1 soldier 1 guy out of 12 dies on average… thats crazy. You approached them as if they should be every bit as good and survivable as any other unit and then gave them great guns at a discount price and gave them super duper anti-suppression abilities (why not just say they can't be suppressed at all), ridiculously good cover abilities (I mean 6 of them can stand in the open giving you the finger and then they get 3 automatic saves). You gave them the advantages that are found in 2 man teams which have those advantages because they are 2 man teams and gave it to a 12 man team… then you gave them a medic as if the whole reversing suppression rolls just for being within 12" of  a hero (seriously???) wasn't elite enough… then you added fast on top of it!!!! Really? In many situations these guys will lose less men in hard cover than a soldier 3 heavily armed elite super high priced unit…. c'mon now…

 

You made them the most uber elite unit in the game with every rule you can think of and a few made up ones and then had the stones to call them "grunts"….

If I sound like I'm being overly critical, well, its because I am. This is why most people will never allow fanmade units to exist in a game… because most people just can't do it…. If you could see me right now I'd be shaking my head and giving you a look of derision….

I can't even remember a time when I was this hard on someone on the internet… but I'm sorry, this is soo full of fail its not funny. It doesn't make a lick of sense for half of these rules to exist and certainly not all on one unit… and certainly not on a soldier 1 units called "the grunts"… and definitely not for that amount of points….. Anyone that allows this unit to be played in a game is crazy. I mentioned a few posts ago that these kind of rules shouldn't exist on a soldier 1 unit, and they are even more ridiculous now than I could ever imagine…

Pure fail. I can't believe how hard I just was on these stats but I actually held back half of how I really felt to be honest.

This is gonna be a doozey of an arguament to make, but I'll try my best.

First of all, flamethrowers are not only Spray weapons but the are Burst weapons, which negate cover. That mean the whole unit only get to make one armor roll againt a possible 11 hits. Ouch.

Second, The Fieldcraft rule needs to that strong to help even out the amount of dice that current weapon lines roll against Soldier 1 units. As an example, lets say a unit of Axis Battle Grenadiers (4StG 47s, 1 Panzerschreck and 2 Panzerfausts) can open fire on either a Soldier 2 unit or a Soldier 1 unit, both in Hard Cover. Against the Soldir 2 Unit the Grenadiers would roll 7/1 dice, averaging out to 2.33 hits, 2 of which are automatically negated from cover. When you also factor in there own armor save, the chances of damaging this unit is very low.

On the other hand, the Grenadiers would roll a total of 14/1 dice against the Soldier 1 unit, averaging out to 4.6 hits, 3 of which is negated by cover. when you consider the fact that the entire Soldier 1 unit only has a single armor roll for their squad, even with the benefits of a better cover save, it would be wiser to shoot the Soldier 1 unit.

Thirdly, I will agree that the moral interaction is probably more difficult to make. The hero rule should probably be dropped; it was included as there is currently no way for the squad to benefit from heros in the army. The medic rule would be better is they could heal units and not remove suppresion, but this ability does require an action to use.

Lasty, while they can put out a lot of shots if they get the chance, they are incredibly fragile and will be eaten alive in the open. The unit also suffers a loss of capability far faster than most units, as it looses it's attack lines quickly as those casualties mount up.And as far as legitimacy in setting this is accurate; even an elite group of soldiers wouldn't walk into the vacinity of an entire platoon of greenhorns.

 

So to sum it all up Strombole the unit isn't OP at all - rather I've tried to find a way to fit it into the meta that doesnt make it utterly useless like they were in your games but at the same time introduce some new ideas and concepts to the game.

Also, just a friendly reminder, these are homebrewed rules. They are not official, nobody is forcing you to play them, and if you don't have any constructive critique to contribute to the conversation regarding Soldier 1 units, then just don't bother.



#17 Doraiya

Doraiya

    Member

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 19 August 2012 - 08:40 PM

V2 Revision



#18 Guest_Not In Sample_*

Guest_Not In Sample_*
  • Guests

Posted 20 August 2012 - 02:02 AM

A lot of spray weapons don't have burst…. I could show you some numbers where this unit will actuially outlive and outkill a unit that costs more than 30 points but I just don't see the point anymore… your own example proved that they are too survivable, IMO. I did mention several ways in which they would be useful and usuable in games without them having to be super buffed… useful and usable doesn't have to mean, live all game, take a ton of fire before they die, fight better, kill more and die less than an SSU squad of 10 that costs twice as much type of approach…. If you want to take the approach that guys that were probably drafted, had a crash course bootcamp, handed a gun and a bucket and are wearing a t-shirt for body armour should live all game long and have more advantages than a special ops unit wearing body armour, then fine… If you want to give them agility rules that are usually reserved for two man teams even though there are 12 of them, fine… I guess they all know parkour…

… Use them, I don't care. I'm not going to try to convince you why this unit doesn't make any sense. I tried to do that earlier in a constructive way when you initially proposed the idea but you were determined to do it anyway and you even ramped it up a notch and made them zombies (though I do see that you did go the other way on the revision where you tried to make them more suppressable which isn't necessary if you take out their anti-suppression abilities as they have larger numbers but should die in larger numbers making the effect of each suppression marker worth more anyway) with better cover abilities rather than worse and they have  a bunch of 16" guns and  a medic and parkour skills, etc, etc. I don't care anymore. Do what you want. I'm done trying to argue.

Regardless of what I think of the actual words written on the cards, you did do a great job on the cards though… they look good. If not for all the special rules and the medic I would probably have tried them out myself.



#19 Doraiya

Doraiya

    Member

  • Members
  • 49 posts

Posted 20 August 2012 - 04:27 AM

Strombole said:

A lot of spray weapons don't have burst…. I could show you some numbers where this unit will actuially outlive and outkill a unit that costs more than 30 points but I just don't see the point anymore… your own example proved that they are too survivable, IMO. I did mention several ways in which they would be useful and usuable in games without them having to be super buffed… useful and usable doesn't have to mean, live all game, take a ton of fire before they die, fight better, kill more and die less than an SSU squad of 10 that costs twice as much type of approach…. If you want to take the approach that guys that were probably drafted, had a crash course bootcamp, handed a gun and a bucket and are wearing a t-shirt for body armour should live all game long and have more advantages than a special ops unit wearing body armour, then fine… If you want to give them agility rules that are usually reserved for two man teams even though there are 12 of them, fine… I guess they all know parkour…

… Use them, I don't care. I'm not going to try to convince you why this unit doesn't make any sense. I tried to do that earlier in a constructive way when you initially proposed the idea but you were determined to do it anyway and you even ramped it up a notch and made them zombies (though I do see that you did go the other way on the revision where you tried to make them more suppressable which isn't necessary if you take out their anti-suppression abilities as they have larger numbers but should die in larger numbers making the effect of each suppression marker worth more anyway) with better cover abilities rather than worse and they have  a bunch of 16" guns and  a medic and parkour skills, etc, etc. I don't care anymore. Do what you want. I'm done trying to argue.

Regardless of what I think of the actual words written on the cards, you did do a great job on the cards though… they look good. If not for all the special rules and the medic I would probably have tried them out myself.

The main reason I included Fast and Agile was to represent their lighter kit compared to the Soldier 2 units, as the Rangers and Storm Grenadiers are both the elite special forces of their factions. The fact that they now take additional Suppresion means that they'll be taking less actions as the game goes on unless the rest of the army can keep the heat off them, another situation you see quite often in war movies.

As for making them more survivable, I just showed you the statistics: in the open they are simply shreded to pieces, and even with imroved cover, they still have a smaller chance of surviving than other units. This means that the only advantage of the unit is the high volume of fire they can put out, but only so long as the opponent doesn't bother throwing anything at them.

I know that you're opposed to some of the ideas I'm throwing around, and to be honest that's a good thing, as it's creating conversation around an element of the game that could to be expanded.



#20 Plueshpanda

Plueshpanda

    Member

  • Members
  • 16 posts

Posted 20 August 2012 - 10:30 AM

 Ok I tried your approach with 2 squads of your allied armor 1 (used bolt action minis from a friend of mine) in a 220 point game.

First of all it was fun. Combined with regular armour it was a very nice game. But and it is a big BUT, the armor 1 troops ruled… with a battlefield of 25% cover they were never in the open (although it was sometimes tricky due to squad size). The added suppression achievd NOTHING. Squad size was too big to make them break and the tokens were regularly removed during command phase. The amount of firepower combined with the speed of the squad left the axis in 3 of 5 turns completely suppressed, so the axis were constantly on the defense. There simply wasn't enough firepower to overcome the cover saves and the medic!

I'd say loose the agile, fieldcraft and heroic presense, keep the rest and it is fine (we will try that out in our next game), because as it is now, there is no reason whatsoever to take any armour 2 infantry, when I could field these guys.

my 2 cents.

Cheers






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS