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Troll's Bash


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#1 Doc4

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 01:42 PM

 Is the Troll's Bash ability able to be used multiple times in a turn? It does not have the word "attack" written there, so I would immediately say yes, were it not for the ease of use and damage it deals.

3 of our 4 heroes have 2 Awareness, so the troll can just stomp one of them twice quite easily for 3x2 damage that is otherwise unresistable. Ouch!

 

Tom / Doc4



#2 Putney

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 05:46 AM

I don't have the game in front of me, but I assume the Troll Bash is an action and has the action symbol (arrow).

The rules state on pg 11: "Monster Action: Some monsters have unique actions listed on their Monster card with a (action symbol).  If any special action allows the monster to perform an attack, it counts as the monster's one attack action for that activation."

So, the bash is the Troll's one attack.



#3 Antistone

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 12:29 PM

Uh, are you suggesting that every ability with an action icon counts as an attack?  I'm pretty certain that's not true.  I believe that rule is saying that some special monster actions also count as attacks.

If the ability says it's an attack, then certainly it is.  But if it doesn't say that, then it sure sounds like you could do it twice in one turn.

Of course, if it only affects adjacent targets, then heroes could make it very difficult to do it twice in a round by the simple expedient of not ending their turn adjacent to a troll.



#4 Putney

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 03:25 PM

I'm not suggesting that every action icon counts as an attack.  I'm suggesting that the bash ability is an attack because it does damage.  Since it's not explicitly stated, maybe add it to the FAQ request stickied at the top of the forum.



#5 Antistone

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 03:57 PM

Putney said:

I'm not suggesting that every action icon counts as an attack.  I'm suggesting that the bash ability is an attack because it does damage. 

You realize that the word "damage" did not appear a single time in your previous post?

Various things in the game deal damage that, I would argue, are obviously not attacks (e.g. lava, various overlord cards).  And the rule you just quoted about special actions involving attacks does not mention damage at any point.  Trying to rule that special actions count as attacks if and only if they deal damage is also going to run into problems with actions that cause fatigue, since fatigue is sometimes (but not always) converted into damage.

So I'd say your suggestion is pretty clearly not RAW, and furthermore would not make a very good rule.



#6 Putney

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Posted 15 August 2012 - 06:41 PM

The core question is - is bash an attack.

In my statement, I used the word 'bash' with all its implied aspects and only specifically mentioned damage because that is one of the main aspects affecting my interpretation (in addition to it being an action).  I didn't anticipate someone inferring that I was talking about damage-causing events other than bash.

I didn't mention damage originally because Doc already mentioned it and I wasn't expecting to be having a pedantic discussion.

Obviously this core question "is bash an attack" is not explicitly answered in the rules.  Any group can play the game any way they choose.  If someone picked up a shield and bashed someone with enough force to potentially cause damage, I can't imagine that anyone in my group would argue that the person didn't attack the other person.  We play that a bash is an attack action.

I'm not writing a rule, just explaining an interpretation.  In the end, the only real answer will come from FFG, which is why, again, I suggest adding it to the FAQ thread.



#7 KristoffStark

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 04:02 AM

 My understanding has been that an ability counts as an attack if it includes the phrase "make an attack" within the ability description.  Much as with abilities that give "move actions" counting as being normal move actions.



#8 KristoffStark

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 05:23 AM

I actually just had a flash of inspiration on my way to work this morning as I tried to define what constitutes an "attack" in this game.

What suddenly occurred to me is that the blue die is referred to as the "attack die."

Perhaps thing that involve the rolling of this die are considered "attacks" and things that do not are not.



#9 Antistone

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 09:01 AM

Perhaps this will surprise you, Putney, but other posters cannot read your mind to figure out why you said something.  They can only read what you actually wrote.

So if you say "I assume the Troll Bash is an action and has the action symbol (arrow)….So, the bash is the Troll's one attack," then it looks like you are drawing an inference based on the implied rule "things that require an action count as attacks".

Similarly, if you say "I'm suggesting that the bash ability is an attack because it does damage," it looks like you're applying a rule along the lines of "things that do damage count as attacks".

If you want anyone that lives outside your head to understand your reason for thinking that Bash counts as an attack, you need to tell us what that reason is.  We don't just magically know.



#10 Triu

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 04:16 AM

Antistone said:

Perhaps this will surprise you, Putney, but other posters cannot read your mind to figure out why you said something.  They can only read what you actually wrote.

So if you say "I assume the Troll Bash is an action and has the action symbol (arrow)….So, the bash is the Troll's one attack," then it looks like you are drawing an inference based on the implied rule "things that require an action count as attacks".

Similarly, if you say "I'm suggesting that the bash ability is an attack because it does damage," it looks like you're applying a rule along the lines of "things that do damage count as attacks".

If you want anyone that lives outside your head to understand your reason for thinking that Bash counts as an attack, you need to tell us what that reason is.  We don't just magically know.

The way I read it, having the icon (which he prefaced by saying he didn't have the card to check) -- or the words "as an action" -- are a prerequisite for it being an attack action.  All attack actions are actions, not the other way around.  If the Bash ability was triggered by a surge, or other special event, it would not be an attack action.  Damage from Lava is not an attack action, because it's not an action.

Assuming it is a member of the class "actions", how do you determine if it's a member of the subclass "attack actions"?  Having those words on the card would be a pretty good indicator, but failing that an action that has the potential to cause damage would be an assault, but not battery if it missed.  Whether all assaults count as attacks in the context of this game is the question.  Not having the game with me at the moment, I can't find a specific example, but I think there may be some.  Finding one exception would prove that not all assaults arising from an action are attacks, and would invalidate his conjecture. 



#11 Columbob

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 06:45 AM

Triu said:

Antistone said:

Perhaps this will surprise you, Putney, but other posters cannot read your mind to figure out why you said something.  They can only read what you actually wrote.

 

So if you say "I assume the Troll Bash is an action and has the action symbol (arrow)….So, the bash is the Troll's one attack," then it looks like you are drawing an inference based on the implied rule "things that require an action count as attacks".

Similarly, if you say "I'm suggesting that the bash ability is an attack because it does damage," it looks like you're applying a rule along the lines of "things that do damage count as attacks".

If you want anyone that lives outside your head to understand your reason for thinking that Bash counts as an attack, you need to tell us what that reason is.  We don't just magically know.

 

The way I read it, having the icon (which he prefaced by saying he didn't have the card to check) -- or the words "as an action" -- are a prerequisite for it being an attack action.  All attack actions are actions, not the other way around.  If the Bash ability was triggered by a surge, or other special event, it would not be an attack action.  Damage from Lava is not an attack action, because it's not an action.

Assuming it is a member of the class "actions", how do you determine if it's a member of the subclass "attack actions"?  Having those words on the card would be a pretty good indicator, but failing that an action that has the potential to cause damage would be an assault, but not battery if it missed.  Whether all assaults count as attacks in the context of this game is the question.  Not having the game with me at the moment, I can't find a specific example, but I think there may be some.  Finding one exception would prove that not all assaults arising from an action are attacks, and would invalidate his conjecture. 

I played with trolls last night, and thought they kind of sucked (no surges to spend).

The Bash action doesn't mention it being an attack. However on the same card, you have the Sweep action, which reads: "Perform and attack. blah blah blah". Seems pretty clear to me that you could use Bash twice, but not sweep.



#12 Rico

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:57 AM

KristoffStark said:

I actually just had a flash of inspiration on my way to work this morning as I tried to define what constitutes an "attack" in this game.

What suddenly occurred to me is that the blue die is referred to as the "attack die."

Perhaps thing that involve the rolling of this die are considered "attacks" and things that do not are not.

Indeed, and bash uses no such die. It's an attribute check. Therefore, with no indication that it is classified as an Attack Action it may be used twice. 



#13 Putney

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:34 AM

After all the back and forth from previous posts, I finally got to see the Troll card.  I would not call that an attack (anymore), but just an attribute check, since he's not rolling to hit.  We play a very D&D style game where the OL keeps a lot hidden, including his die rolling.  He's happy to no longer consider it his bash 'attack' and use it twice per turn.






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