Jump to content



Photo

Space Marines and Grey Knights


  • Please log in to reply
35 replies to this topic

#1 nethru

nethru

    Member

  • Members
  • 134 posts

Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:09 AM

Anyone got any ideas how to incorporate them into this system?  I figure can use the SM template from Black Crusade but what about codex powers and Grey Knight powers?



#2 JuankiMan

JuankiMan

    Member

  • Members
  • 256 posts

Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:16 AM

 I personally wouldn't include them at all. In order to have a slight semblance of balance, the regular guardsmen would need thousands of XP, and even with that they would be shafted. Any foe that threatens a Space Marine, much more a Grey Knight, would absolutely brutalize a regular mortal, and there's nothing an Imperial Guard can do that an Astartes can't do better, so they would be hopelessly overshadowed.



#3 Cifer

Cifer

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,790 posts

Posted 10 August 2012 - 12:36 AM

@JuankiMan

Presumably, you wouldn't include both in the same game.

 

@Topic

Just set a couple aptitudes for the specializations, give them Unnatural Strength and Toughness (4), raise every characteristic by 10 and hand over a few thousand XP. Problem solved.



#4 KommissarK

KommissarK

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,499 posts

Posted 10 August 2012 - 03:18 AM

Are they meant to be more background NPCs, allies, or even enemies in combat encounters?

Why not just use Grey Knights as listed in BC. As far as marines, I'd just use a straight 40 stat block and the starting skills/talents/traits from DW. I'd drop the ammo selector from the boltgun.

As far as situations/themes they can be used in…

Space Marines would probably be a great way to abstract out a TPK where the party burnt fate points to keep going, but the GM needs an explanation as to how/why the enemies were fought off.

Grey Knights very much could be a moment of need sort of thing as well, but sadly, the threats they're usually sent against make it nigh impossible for a guardsmen PC to survive. They could make for a great final moment to a campaign, where the chips are down, the full scale daemon incursion has occured, the party actually sees the daemon prince on the field (and could actually shoot/charge it). GK teleport in, attack, injure, but fail to defeat the daemon prince (and then the GK themselves are slain by the great enemy). The party at this point will have as many turns as there are players as the daemon prince turns his attention to the party.

Personally, I wouldn't pit a party against Space Marines/GK. Just too anti-heroic for my liking. Also, I would downplay the whole "regiments of IG are executed to keep the GK secret" sorta thing.



#5 Lynata

Lynata

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,341 posts

Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:18 AM

 What Cifer said. Space Marines are much, much tougher and way more powerful in FFG's games than they are in the tabletop or the Inquisitor RPG. Encounters like IG vs CSMs such as they occur in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels, for example, are probably right out - the "power gap" has just become too big, and I feel a fight like that would require so much NPC backup that it makes the player characters look like extras, and even then a single attack by a Marine would probably waste a PC.

I feel the only way to work them into the system as anything other than a background element would be to do a lot of houseruling, and revisiting the way how Astartes work in FFG's systems from the ground up. Getting rid of silly Unnatural bonuses and the artificial equipment gap would go a very long way to bring them closer together; I'd probably transform the Unnaturals into a simple +20 bonus and give them additional Wounds so they are generally affected easier, but would be able to keep on going for some more time regardless. An even better solution might be to re-do the way how Toughness, Wounds and Injuries work and bring it closer to how it works in "Inquisitor" (thus avoiding some of the weird consequences that result out of treating Toughness like a 2nd layer of armour), but that'd require major changes to the core game …


current 40k RPG character: Captain Elias, Celestial Lions Tactical Marine   
previous characters: Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia)

#6 Seeten

Seeten

    Member

  • Members
  • 146 posts

Posted 10 August 2012 - 05:40 AM

A multimelta will waste a marine in 2 seconds flat. So will a Lascannon. As long as people have reasonable heavy weapons, Marines can be killed. If you arm your players with water pistols and rocks, don't send them against Marines, obviously. If they have Power Swords and Inferno Pistols and Multimeltas, the fights are a lot more even.

Multimelta is 4d10+5 Pen 13.

Marine Armor is AP 10 and TB is generally around 8. Thats a lot of wounds coming through.

 



#7 Lynata

Lynata

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,341 posts

Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:31 AM

 2d10+16, but you've got a point - I forgot that it is actually theoretically possible for Guardsmen to lug around multimeltas here. Even a normal melta might do.

The only issue I'm seeing is that anyone who is not a Heavy Gunner or Weapon Specialist is flat out of luck and might feel a bit useless during the fight.

Then again, with the new Triplex rules …


current 40k RPG character: Captain Elias, Celestial Lions Tactical Marine   
previous characters: Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia)

#8 Seeten

Seeten

    Member

  • Members
  • 146 posts

Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:51 AM

Its 4d10+5 pen 13 on my Arch Militant =)

My Arch Militant is loads more dangerous than my Chaos Marine, it isnt even close =)

But yeah, if you wanna kill marines, you'd need to herd them into a Multimelta blast template, use melta bombs, Krak Missiles, Lascannons, all things the Guard has access to.

 

It isnt as easy as "Men, Fire your lasguns!" but then, I assume the point of the idea was a challenge? =)



#9 WittyDroog

WittyDroog

    Member

  • Members
  • 211 posts

Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:33 PM

 But of course that's all good and gravy if you manage to kill all the marines during your round, if any of them survive it'll be a bloodbath when they return fire/charge/shoot magic lasers from their eyes/etc.

Also way to bring up an RT character in a discussion about OW, like that's a fair comparison.



#10 Plushy

Plushy

    Member

  • Members
  • 810 posts

Posted 11 August 2012 - 12:49 PM

 A character in one of our games summed it up pretty well. "A Space Marine is not a man. It's a fast-moving tank with a chainsword and an exposed head."

 

Melta and Plasma weapons are important, as are any other AV weapons. Things like Sniper Rifles are also important; cutting through Unnatural Toughness is really hard. If they survive, they'll almost certainly waste at least one PC. But they can be taken down with clever thinking! A party I ran a game for spread themselves between two bunkers and alternated Sniper and Missile Launcher fire, then sprayed him with a Flamer and buried him with grenades. The Arbitrator died and the Tech-Priest lost an arm, but it was a victory.

 

I have rules for playing a Scout in my homebrew thread, if you're interested.


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

Please check out my Dark Heresy to Only War conversion! You can find it on the main Only War forum. I'm always looking for more people to playtest it!


#11 Seeten

Seeten

    Member

  • Members
  • 146 posts

Posted 11 August 2012 - 05:55 PM

You got me there. I dont have the OW rules, so all I got is my AM's multi melta to go by, sorry.



#12 WittyDroog

WittyDroog

    Member

  • Members
  • 211 posts

Posted 11 August 2012 - 10:05 PM

Seeten said:

You got me there. I dont have the OW rules, so all I got is my AM's multi melta to go by, sorry.

 

Yeah, it's apples and oranges.



#13 Kiton

Kiton

    Member

  • Members
  • 364 posts

Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:01 AM

Unfortunately, unless the melta/plasma/lascannon guy gets initiative [he probably won't], hits without being dodged or blocked by fields and rolls well on the damage, and there's only one marine, that entire squad would be down. There's little to no reason for the marine not to shoot the one threat to him first

Otherwise, ten guys with ten Lasguns would need ten triple-hits with tens on all the damage to inflict 30 wounds through Righteous Fury, possibly causing enough critical damage to kill him. Maybe.

 

However, Deathwatch's XP curve means that any other character, whether CSM or Scum or ratling, can annihilate a marine by the time they've reached those values of XP.



#14 Seeten

Seeten

    Member

  • Members
  • 146 posts

Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:11 AM

Yeah, its really not apples and oranges. OW characters have similar characteristic scores compared to Rogue Trader, if slightly lower, and Multi Meltas exist in both games. Heavy Weapons guys exist in the IG, in fact, if you've ever played the table top, the only army I know of with more heavy weapons than the Guard is the Sisters of Battle.

I brought up my Arch Militants multi melta specifically, because I know exactly how much damage it does, out of the box (4d10+5 pen 13), not due to any comparisons from game to game. If you read my posts contextually, instead of in an effort to nitpick, you'd have noticed that.



#15 KommissarK

KommissarK

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,499 posts

Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:16 AM

Just pointing this out, the OP never said he was intending to use them as adversaries.



#16 Plushy

Plushy

    Member

  • Members
  • 810 posts

Posted 13 August 2012 - 08:26 AM

Exactly! The Black Crusade race is a great starting point. You're just looking at 30-50 base for characteristics, with a TB around 8 and an armor of 8 all around. Throw on a Chain- or Power- weapon with multiple attacks and a Boltgun with upped damage and Pen. They can probably shoot any PC to death in two turns, and can easily erase one from the planet in melee with one. 

 

Treat them like a tank, really. Heavily armored and heavily armed. Hit him with AT weapon and keep him away. The party should be clever and they could take him down.

 

As a helper or party member, it's really the same thing. My shot at something playable:

 

Space Marine Scout (0xp)

Characteristic Bonus: +5 T
Starting Aptitudes: Offence, Fieldcraft, Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength, Toughness
Starting Skills: Athletics, Common Lore: (Imperium, War), Dodge, Forbidden Lore: (Adeptus Astartes; Xenos or Heretics), Stealth
Starting Talents: Die Hard, Autosanguine, Light Sleeper, Resistance: Poison, Heightened Senses: Hearing, Jaded, Bulging Biceps
Starting Traits: Size (Hulking), Unnatural Strength (+2), Unnatural Toughness (+2),
Starting Gear: Common-craftsmanship Shotgun (pump action) and 2 clips or Common- craftsmanship Bolter and 2 clips or common-craftsmanship Sniper Rifle and 2 clips, Common-craftsmanship mono-knife, 2 Frag Grenades, Light Carapace Armour, Cameoline Cloak
Wounds: 14+1d5
 


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

Please check out my Dark Heresy to Only War conversion! You can find it on the main Only War forum. I'm always looking for more people to playtest it!


#17 Musclewizard

Musclewizard

    Member

  • Members
  • 320 posts

Posted 13 August 2012 - 09:20 AM

Plushy said:

Space Marine Scout (0xp)

Characteristic Bonus: +5 T
Starting Aptitudes: Offence, Fieldcraft, Weapon Skill, Ballistic Skill, Strength, Toughness
Starting Skills: Athletics, Common Lore: (Imperium, War), Dodge, Forbidden Lore: (Adeptus Astartes; Xenos or Heretics), Stealth
Starting Talents: Die Hard, Autosanguine, Light Sleeper, Resistance: Poison, Heightened Senses: Hearing, Jaded, Bulging Biceps
Starting Traits: Size (Hulking), Unnatural Strength (+2), Unnatural Toughness (+2),
Starting Gear: Common-craftsmanship Shotgun (pump action) and 2 clips or Common- craftsmanship Bolter and 2 clips or common-craftsmanship Sniper Rifle and 2 clips, Common-craftsmanship mono-knife, 2 Frag Grenades, Light Carapace Armour, Cameoline Cloak
Wounds: 14+1d5
 


Should the Scout really be hulking from the get go, I always thought its the power armour that make 'em hulking and the black carapace that removes it (or at least the to-hit bonus the enemies get). Shouldn't scouts use Astartes Shotguns, Sniper Rifles and Astartes Bolters from DW? I'm assuming those are more powerful than their human counterparts which would lead to some balancing problems.



#18 Lynata

Lynata

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,341 posts

Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:29 PM

Musclewizard said:

Should the Scout really be hulking from the get go, I always thought its the power armour that make 'em hulking and the black carapace that removes it (or at least the to-hit bonus the enemies get).

That's a really good question. The "Hulking" trait supposedly makes people easier to target since they are just larger. Here it is applied to Space Marines in a rather weird way in that (a) they shouldn't really become that much bigger since they are already massive and (b) they can, for some reason, counteract this effect with their black carapace, as if that would make them any smaller.

From reading the explanation in DW, it very much sounds like two ideas ("hulking = size" vs "hulking = agility") clashing against each other. I suppose it's up to personal interpretation if it is applied best to the body, to the armour, or even not at all.

Musclewizard said:

Shouldn't scouts use Astartes Shotguns, Sniper Rifles and Astartes Bolters from DW? I'm assuming those are more powerful than their human counterparts which would lead to some balancing problems.

I think ultimately it comes down to whether the group prefers FFG's vision that there is a difference between these weapons, or GW's vision that there isn't. I for one know which way would be more balanced and enjoyable for a mixed party in an RPG. Ultimately, an Astartes Scout is still going to shine - he's just going to shine more in CC and general survivability than in ranged combat (compared to other characters), which I think is the general idea behind Space Marines.

Personally, I would also abstain from Unnatural traits and simply give the class a flat +20, but that's just because I never understood the reason for Unnatural Traits in the first place and always thought they were more trouble than they're worth.


current 40k RPG character: Captain Elias, Celestial Lions Tactical Marine   
previous characters: Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia)

#19 Plushy

Plushy

    Member

  • Members
  • 810 posts

Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:52 PM

Lynata said:

Musclewizard said:

Should the Scout really be hulking from the get go, I always thought its the power armour that make 'em hulking and the black carapace that removes it (or at least the to-hit bonus the enemies get).

That's a really good question. The "Hulking" trait supposedly makes people easier to target since they are just larger. Here it is applied to Space Marines in a rather weird way in that (a) they shouldn't really become that much bigger since they are already massive and (b) they can, for some reason, counteract this effect with their black carapace, as if that would make them any smaller.

From reading the explanation in DW, it very much sounds like two ideas ("hulking = size" vs "hulking = agility") clashing against each other. I suppose it's up to personal interpretation if it is applied best to the body, to the armour, or even not at all.

Musclewizard said:

Shouldn't scouts use Astartes Shotguns, Sniper Rifles and Astartes Bolters from DW? I'm assuming those are more powerful than their human counterparts which would lead to some balancing problems.

I think ultimately it comes down to whether the group prefers FFG's vision that there is a difference between these weapons, or GW's vision that there isn't. I for one know which way would be more balanced and enjoyable for a mixed party in an RPG. Ultimately, an Astartes Scout is still going to shine - he's just going to shine more in CC and general survivability than in ranged combat (compared to other characters), which I think is the general idea behind Space Marines.

Personally, I would also abstain from Unnatural traits and simply give the class a flat +20, but that's just because I never understood the reason for Unnatural Traits in the first place and always thought they were more trouble than they're worth.

 

The reason for Unnatural Characteristics works best with Strength. Unnatural Strength would only affect melee attack damage, whereas a +20 would also affect skills. I gave him Hulking because Space Marines are huge due to their surgeries and being easier to hit is a fine drawback. For this, I intended his weapons to be regular (trading fluff for balance) and am eager to try him in a playtest.


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

Please check out my Dark Heresy to Only War conversion! You can find it on the main Only War forum. I'm always looking for more people to playtest it!


#20 Lynata

Lynata

    Member

  • Members
  • 2,341 posts

Posted 13 August 2012 - 04:10 PM

Plushy said:

The reason for Unnatural Characteristics works best with Strength. Unnatural Strength would only affect melee attack damage, whereas a +20 would also affect skills.

That's true, but shouldn't it also affect skills? To me, it would seem natural that a Space Marine is just a lot better at stuff like climbing or intimidating. And I say that whilst usually argueing against people exaggerating their supposed abilities! :D

By keeping it at a "low" +20, it should come out rather okay'ish in that the character is the designated go-to guy for anything that involves muscle work, but at the same time doesn't result in an auto-win all the time. (I hope)


current 40k RPG character: Captain Elias, Celestial Lions Tactical Marine   
previous characters: Comrade-Trooper Dasha Malenko (1207th Valhallan Ice Warriors), Sister Elana (Order of the Sacred Rose), Leftenant Darion Baylesworth (Rogue Trader frigate Artemisia)




© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS