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#1 Thaddux

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 09:34 PM

-There is no mention of how much ammo a vehicle carries.

-There are no drawbacks for being fire damaged.

-Repairing critical damage is easier than repairing heavy damage.



#2 Villum

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:41 AM

 

-There is no list of of other standard equipment in vehicles: Auspex? Locke-Pattern long-range auspex from Into the Storm. MIU Interface? I assume the vehicles have MIU interfaces, since the operator has the implant. But wouldn't that imply some kind of sensors as well? What about comms in general? do we need to know their range? What vehicles have them? If a vehicle has comms, does the squad have some sort of comm system too when they're outside?

These things might seem to be too small details, but these vehicles are likely to play a big role in any game where the squad has one



#3 BaronIveagh

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 05:13 AM

 

Some Vehicle Criticals are actually impossible on some Vehicles.

Motive Systems Hit Chart:

10+: Rule of Cool is nice and all, but if IA is to be believed, the Leman Russ has a rear mounted transmission.  Unless you kick it with a Titan, it could never flip forwards, only backwards.  Secondly, you can't flip a tracked vehicle like that at all.  The torque to do it isn't there, what would happen in the unlikely event that the hit described took place is that your tracks would part.  The Vehicle would be immobilized, but that's that.

 

Hull Critical Hit Chart

6: To create this effect, the explosion would have to take place against the vehicle's armor, but outside, not inside.  What happens then is that spalling (small fragments of the vehicles armor that peel off from the explosion) goes bouncing around inside the tank, wounding, maiming, killing, and smashing other bits of equipment.  When this happens, the chance of fire should be for the vehicle to catch fire, not the characters.

 

Turret Critical Hit Chat:

10+: More possible then the others, but again, if IA is to be believed the secondary explosions would very, very rarely take place on anything based on the Leman Russ, as the shot locker is down along the floor against the hull and fuel is well away from the turret.  There's nothing to explode.

 

I know the writer wants to keep as much of the original 2nd ed datafax cards in the game as possible, but I feel that this is going to alienate this products next two biggest target audiences (non-40k wargamers and RPG fans into military stuff) after 40k fans.

 

A suggested addition to the rule on facings: 

 

'At the GMs discretion, firing at a vehicle from the border of two facings gives a vehicle a 20% bonus to armor.'  This is due to the fact that firing at an armored target at such a steep angle makes it hard to get a penning shot.

 

-There is no mention of how much ammo a vehicle carries.

Not to blow my own horn, but I covered that in the fan rules I made years ago, based on IA's stats for the Leman Russ hull.

"A tank typically carries 600 rounds per heavy bolter, and las cannons are powered by the engine and therefore have infinite ammunition, as long as the engine is running.

A Leman Russ can carry 40 rounds for a Battle Cannon in its shot locker. More can be carried externally.

A Leman Russ can carry 12 rounds for a Plasma Destroyer in a Photonic Fuel Cell. This is regenerated at a rate of one round per ten minutes, narrative time, as long as the tank remains stationary with the engines running.

A Leman Russ can carry 28 rounds for a Vanquisher Battle Cannon in its shot locker. More can be carried externally.

A Leman Russ can carry 360 rounds for an Exterminator Autocannon in its shot locker. More can be carried externally.

A Leman Russ can carry 18 rounds for a Demolisher Cannon in its shot locker. More can be carried externally.

A Basilisk can carry 20 rounds in its shot locker. Usually artillery has a large number of support vehicles to carry additional ammunition. Further ammo may be carried externally."

 



#4 JuankiMan

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 11:46 AM

BaronIveagh said:

I know the writer wants to keep as much of the original 2nd ed datafax cards in the game as possible, but I feel that this is going to alienate this products next two biggest target audiences (non-40k wargamers and RPG fans into military stuff) after 40k fans.

I don't think the writer had the 2ed datafax cards in mind when doing the tables. I think what he had in mind was something simple to use and broad enough to apply to a myriad of vehicles, instead of an impossibly complicated case-by-case system. Regular critical hits are the same. There is no way in hell a bolt pistol could reduce a man to a fine red mist with a single round, but the result is there on the table. This is an RPG and if something is silly that what the GM is for, as the final arbitrator.

Also, Leman Russ tanks have a shot locker at the back of the turret and plasma ammunition does not regenerate since the cells are fueled by a finite amount of fusionable hydrogen, not by the vehicle's engine.



#5 BaronIveagh

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 10:10 AM

JuankiMan said:

 

 

I don't think the writer had the 2ed datafax cards in mind when doing the tables. I think what he had in mind was something simple to use and broad enough to apply to a myriad of vehicles, instead of an impossibly complicated case-by-case system. Regular critical hits are the same. There is no way in hell a bolt pistol could reduce a man to a fine red mist with a single round, but the result is there on the table. This is an RPG and if something is silly that what the GM is for, as the final arbitrator.

Also, Leman Russ tanks have a shot locker at the back of the turret and plasma ammunition does not regenerate since the cells are fueled by a finite amount of fusionable hydrogen, not by the vehicle's engine.

 

 

 

 

From the SM Rhino datafax, Track Damage Table:

"6 A track is blown off and the resulting damage smashes the vehicle's drive shaft causing it to flip over.  The wreck domes to rest d6" away in a random direction…"

 

The Leman Russ does not have a shot locker in the turret.  Please consult the cut away diagram in Imperial Armor, Vol 1, page 40.  Quite a bit of the LR's turret volume is actually external stowage compartments.

The thing with the Exicutioner, yes, those were copied from the rules I drew up based on the Vehicle Apocrypha for DH. In IA 1, the Plasma Destroyer only holds 12 shots, which proved too much of a liability in any situation where the tank was involved in an extended engagement.  Particularly as the fluff states it's very difficult to reload in combat at all. 

A 12 shot, un-reloadable weapon proved a serious liability when we tested it.  7 out of ten tries, it ran of of ammunition in the first 15 min of an engagement.  Notice as well in the original tank rules I did that ranges were longer then in OW, and more in line with fluff and actual tank engagement ranges.  

Since tanks, like men, tend to try and seek cover when fighting, out of a 15 min engagement, 10 of it was typically behind a barrier or terrain if possible, giving it about 1 extra shot.

 

On bolters reducing a man to a fine red mist.  Actually a .75 cal explosive round will blow a hole almost a foot across in the door of a late model Buick.  While I doubt that it would be a 'fine red mist' it could very well be bits and pieces.  A .75 solid slug can tear an arm off on a hit to the shoulder joint.

 

 

Further, a system does not need to be overly complicated to be both fun and somewhat realistic.  Gms already have ot check the angle to determine which facing that is being fired upon, so the armor bonus idea would take them all of a second more to apply.



#6 WittyDroog

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:47 PM

 I figured these missing items would be coming in the final product, much like other missing equipment like Purity Seals. But it's good to voice that we HAVE in fact noticed them missing.

I agree with JuankiMan regarding the tables, it's just streamlining so you're not bogged down in table rolling (don't get me wrong, I love table rolling). But I get the point about Russes not flipping over. To be tongue-in-cheek, however, the Russ does have a hilariously high and forward center of gravity on it's treads so maybe it can at least fall forward on its face in the perfect storm of conditions. If it's a huge issue than when the result occurs just come up with some appropriately fluffy reason that would both satisfy the fluff of the vehicle as well as the mechanical penalty of the critical.



#7 BaronIveagh

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 04:28 PM

WittyDroog said:

But I get the point about Russes not flipping over. To be tongue-in-cheek, however, the Russ does have a hilariously high and forward center of gravity on it's treads so maybe it can at least fall forward on its face in the perfect storm of conditions. If it's a huge issue than when the result occurs just come up with some appropriately fluffy reason that would both satisfy the fluff of the vehicle as well as the mechanical penalty of the critical.

 

Eh…  Her engine is in the rear, making her ass heavier then you'd think.  Looking at her, under the right circumstances, she might tip sideways if she was moving at speed.  See, when you shoot off a tank's track, it turns in the direction of the now missing tred before it comes ot a halt.  But if she's got sponsons, she'd crumple a sponson before falling right back on her bottom again, because of that engine weight again. 

 

Eh, it just bugs me, she's too flat and fat, and so much of her weight is low in the hull. If i ran this past the Hell party it'd never fly, we've been using a much more realisitic armor crit table since DH came out. Granted, I can keep right on using house rules, but I had expected better then a retred of 2nd Eds datafax cards.

 

Hmm..

How about:

10+: A round strikes the vehicle's transmission, causing it to veer suddenly and topple over on it's side, sending people and equipment flying.  Tracked Vehicles, Wheeled Vehicles and Skimmers immediately move forward half their Tactical Speed before turning 45 degrees and then tip over. This is treated as a crash in all respects. Walkers move forward half their Tactical Speed and before falling over. Anything mounted on the side of the vehicle it has turned on (turrets, specialist equipment weapons, sponsons) is destroyed. Exposed crew and passengers may be thrown or crushed. Other weapons mounted on a vehicle's hull may still be used assuming there are any crew left to use them. The vehicle is completely immobilised, and will not be able to move under its own power until recovered and repaired (treat this as a Motive Systems Destroyed Damage Condition (see page 214) that cannot be repaired until the vehicle has been turned ride side up again)."

 

 



#8 WittyDroog

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 11:54 PM

 Right I know the engine is in the rear but everything else is high up. I was more making fun of how hilarious tall a Russ is compared to the rest of its proportions than making a legitimate physics-backed claim.

I love the tank, don't get me wrong, it has a lot of personality, but it's also hilariously impractical like a lot of 40k vehicles (Rule of Cool wins again).



#9 BaronIveagh

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 04:00 AM

WittyDroog said:

 Right I know the engine is in the rear but everything else is high up. I was more making fun of how hilarious tall a Russ is compared to the rest of its proportions than making a legitimate physics-backed claim.

I love the tank, don't get me wrong, it has a lot of personality, but it's also hilariously impractical like a lot of 40k vehicles (Rule of Cool wins again).

It' because they had the rights to a simler looking tank model that sort of 'evolved' over the years.  That said, with sponsons on, she's actually pretty wide as well.

 

The only time i could see the slipping forward thing would be something like bikes.  But Rough Riders don't appear in the book, so again…






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