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SSU Airborne Transport - multiples?


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#1 GrumpyBatman

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 06:34 PM

I do not have the Russian expansion book, yet.  So, I am wondering if any of you could give me an idea if there would be any reason to have multiple Airborne Transports and the Chinese squads that come with them?  How does the book handle them as far as buying them?  Do they come as a package when you spend points to get one or the other?

Is having multiples wise or unwise?  I am certainly looking for opinions here, so please feel free to jump up and give one. :D



#2 Pael

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 07:57 PM

 The transport and auxiliaries are separate units in the book. This goes for the walker transport as well. Having multiples would be good as there is an upgrade that makes all of your soldier units transport friendly.
The commissar lead platoon allows you to take the transport as your extra and you can also take up to four auxiliaries.
The medvedi platoon allows you to take up to three auxiliaries.
The auxiliaries have a spec ability that allows them to disembark even after the transport has moved, making them very versatile in the attack. The transport moves up to 36" and bam out jump the aux to deal some damage. The platoon upgrade I was talking about gives this special ability to all soldier units. So instead of aux you can drop that cc unit behind the big old nasty walker and bam no more walker.
One last thing about the aux they are ap cheap!! but still can do a bit of hefty damage to anything if you play them right.



#3 deedob

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 12:53 AM

The chinese volunteers are equipped by default with the "air cavalry" skill, which makes them better with Transports. This skill can be purchased for 5AP so that it can apply to a whole platoon.

Outside this, they have no link to the Transport itself, outside the fact they are sold together.

 

Having multiple Transports? Why not? They are treated very similarly to walkers.



#4 Wardemon

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 03:05 AM

 Transports up to 36'?  With a normal movement of 12' and double movement of 24', where does the other 12' come from?



#5 RobT

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 03:36 AM

 Air units have a compulsory movement of 12 inches in addition to any move actions they may take during activation. 12 in. compulsory move plus a march move action would be 36 inches.



#6 GrumpyBatman

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 03:57 AM

Thanks to you all for excellent information!  It was just what I was looking for as I plan what to get. 



#7 Shadow4ce

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 06:29 AM

 Also, the Chinese are cheap as a double-unit human wave when joining two squads with a Commissar. Basically you can have an 11-man unit for the same price as some of the Axis & Allues' 3-man heavy squads. 



#8 Doraiya

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 01:50 PM

Shadow4ce said:

 Also, the Chinese are cheap as a double-unit human wave when joining two squads with a Commissar. Basically you can have an 11-man unit for the same price as some of the Axis & Allues' 3-man heavy squads. 

'

And at 35-39AP depending on what Commissar you use, that's a damn cheap meat shield!

However, I'd prefer to use a more expensive combo that becomes a true deathstar unit;

Yakov - 21AP

'The Derzhavin' - 5AP

Frontoviki Squad - 20AP

Frontokivi Squad - 20AP

Total - 66AP

While this unit is twice as expensive, it is capable of moving up the field and getting the most out of cover with the Legendary Tactician Rule, and the Badass Rule allows them to keep going regardless of Supression and Reactions. Once it's in a good position to control objectives or other key locations, no infantry unit in the game will want to go near 4 DPM MG, let alone 11 grenades and an acid thrower.



#9 Shadow4ce

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 02:44 AM

 I absolutely agree with you. I was just providing the OP with something to do with the extra Chinese Squad they'd have after doubling up on the helo. Basically proving yet another viable reason to get a second MIL Mi-45 Transport box. 



#10 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 08:23 AM

Doraiya said:

 

Shadow4ce said:

 

 Also, the Chinese are cheap as a double-unit human wave when joining two squads with a Commissar. Basically you can have an 11-man unit for the same price as some of the Axis & Allues' 3-man heavy squads. 

 

'

 

And at 35-39AP depending on what Commissar you use, that's a damn cheap meat shield!

However, I'd prefer to use a more expensive combo that becomes a true deathstar unit;

Yakov - 21AP

'The Derzhavin' - 5AP

Frontoviki Squad - 20AP

Frontokivi Squad - 20AP

Total - 66AP

While this unit is twice as expensive, it is capable of moving up the field and getting the most out of cover with the Legendary Tactician Rule, and the Badass Rule allows them to keep going regardless of Supression and Reactions. Once it's in a good position to control objectives or other key locations, no infantry unit in the game will want to go near 4 DPM MG, let alone 11 grenades and an acid thrower.

 

 

I have tried the combined frontoviki with commissar and its pretty deadly… the only thing is thay we tend to frown on proxies around here so this isn't a possibility yet. The only SSU heroes available for use right now are Koshka and Nikolai (there's a Nikolai model on the dust-models site but since the heroes box isn't available yet, running Yakov and/or Red Yana lists just don't fly around here yet :( We used to do the whole proxies thing but it was just too much after a while and we want people to actually buy Dust models, not say, "can I use my Dark Angels as Germans?" (true story… we said no, you can borrow someone's army if you want to try, we are not going to try to keep track of which Space Marine is which Geramn with which gun, etc) which seems to be what half of the 40k games devolve into around here…"Who is that supposed to be again? I thought it was just a chump with  a chainsword, now that I let you get close you are telling me its Mephiston?" (another true story)

A guy tried to say that his 2 transport choppers were actually attack choppers with rocket pods and napalm bombs and we all kind of laughed at that one… we haven't allowed proxy models ever since the FLGS started stocking the entire Dust line. "If you want to play with that model, go over to that wall and buy it… we'll wait for you to unwrap the box and take it out… its pre-built… we'll wait." Being new to the group he tried to ask why he couldn't do it, my buddy said "ok then this blackhawk is really a fireball… This isn't 40k, we don't say that one guy is another guy and one gun is a different gun".

We used to let people proxy stuff and use alternate models but things just got out of hand when we let people proxy stuff and we wanted to distance ourselves from the 40k crowd who seem to proxy almost everything. Dust doesn't cost a fortune per model so we stopped allowing it. The soviets have plenty of shiny new stuff to play with without needing to use every single unit that isn't released yet.

But that's just how we play it here…. it seems that everywhere else lets you proxy everything since I have seen tons of lists online filled with models that don't exist and comments about how great they are in game so we are probably in the minority. Then again I have read about people playing with paper cutouts representing models and that just seems silly to me… But then, we look down at people who don't paint up their models, just another way where we try to distance ourselves from the 40k/hordemachine crowd who don't ever seem to paint anything or buy the right models for that matter… "If every game you are telling me that the Chaplain model is really a Librarian, why the hell didn't you buy a Librarian in the first place?" I had to laugh when I heard that one during a 40k game, lol.



#11 Maine

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Posted 11 August 2012 - 01:00 PM

If you would like to experiment with SSU list building before you buy the book and models, then I highly recommend the Dust Warfare Force Builder I provide at http://dust.mainecoon.net/

A 151-300 point list could have up to 4 Airborne transports, but you would give up all other supports to do so.



#12 Shadow4ce

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 05:18 AM

 I'm with Strombole…

You'd better have an attack of Moxie before you ask me if you can Proxy!

Especially where the models are playable out of the box. I've allowed folks to proxy in Warmachine if they had the actual model, but it was broken or they just bought it, but only in friendly games, never in sanctioned events. 



#13 Maine

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 07:33 AM

It seems some people in this thread, and their friends, are pretty harsh on proxying.

I suggest lightening your stance, at least to allow someone to try a model before they buy.  It's one thing to proxy a model constantly because you don't feel like buying it - I disagree with that, unless the model is unavailable.  It's another thing entirely to proxy a like-sized/shaped model once or twice for the sake of testing it.

Sure the models are still relatively cheap, already assembled, and most units are worth owning, but it still sucks to drop $25-40 just to try something only to find out you really don't like it, and now feel like you wasted your money.

You hurt the entire hobby, even yourselves, by such attitude.  You make your group appear like elitist jerks who are just trying to push more product on to newcomers.  This leads to one of three things happening:

1. They leave, decide they don't want to get involved with such individuals and don't want to seek another group, and drop the hobby.  I've seen and heard of this happening a lot with at certain hobby shops.

2. They leave, and decide to only play with their friends or find another group, and they will likely warn people off of your group.  Your group loses out on one or more new people joining as a result.

3. They stay, and may take on the same attitudes as you, which while your group grows in membership, it results in stagnation as it fills up with like-minded individuals.  Diversity is a good thing.

Finally, looking down on people who don't paint every model?  Really?  Wow.  It's very mature of you to look down on people for such petty things.

So go ahead, continue with such attitudes, but understand you hurt the entire hobby by doing so.



#14 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 07:45 AM

I understand your stance and in many ways, totally agree with it. If someone wants to try a model or unit out, odds are one of us has it to lend to you to see if you like it in cases such as you described. I have three armies and can only use one at a time, my other buddy has 3, another has 2, etc… so that is not the issue. As I said, when the guy wanted to proxy in a Space Marine army to play with, we said no, then offered him the use of one of our armies… what we don't allow is for people to proxy in models on a long-term basis when its sitting on the shelf 10 feet away…. and we don't let people play models that are not released yet… we save those for when they get released… it makes the release of those models a special time when it turns into… "oh crap, the attack choppers are out now" "I know, Sam just bought 2 of them" "Oh damn…." Its a reward for the guy that spent his hard earned money to buy that new model right away that he gets to play it first.

As I said, we may be in the minority… and if not being able to play with an unreleased model when there are a crap ton of released models to play with is going to keep a new player from playing the game, then we probably don't want to play with him anyway… I completely understand what you are saying about the "try before you buy" thing and we do have allowances for that… just not for "try before its even possible to buy" or "try for 2 month when its on the wall beside you for $15 and you are too cheap to buy it but you have an iphone4".

But, again, that's us… we are a bunch of grumpy old sticklers whe it comes to certain things as we don't want to be like the 40k people so we turn up our snobby noses at anything that smells of the 40k mentality, lol.



#15 Maine

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 07:56 AM

Strombole said:

 

But, again, that's us… we are a bunch of grumpy old sticklers whe it comes to certain things as we don't want to be like the 40k people so we turn up our snobby noses at anything that smells of the 40k mentality, lol.

 

 

Strombole, your stance is OK, in my book.  Doraiya's group just outright laughed at a guy though.

As an aside, most 40k groups I know of frown on extensive or long term proxying, too.  However in 40k there are many more variables to whether something is useful and far more options, so there is more experimentation needed to see if something works or not in ones army.

Edit: Warhammer Fantasy & 40k also have a much more extensive hobby oriented side, with 'counts-as' and custom modelling units; though making a custom Lord Castellan Creed or Vulken He'stan is not the same as than proxying a Chimera for a Rhino, this extensive customizing and conversion side of the hobby is probably why proxying may be seen as more acceptable.  For example, Golden Demon entrants must feature customizing and cannot be a straight up original model.



#16 Shadow4ce

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 08:12 AM

 You appear to be a little quick to judge there Maine, and I feel in my group's case, you may have done so unfairly.  

First of all, I acknowledge the painting thing (hooefully) wasn't directed at me at all, so I'll not respond to that.

As far as the proxying thing and being elitist, one thing I didn't mention is our group is very open to loaning models to other players who wish to, "try before you buy" so they don't have to proxy, so don't point a finger my way as being an elitest jerk.

I'm pretty much stepping down as a PG for WM/Hordes and going to focus on their IK RPG and boardgames, as the core WM/Hordes players - including our other PG - have become my definition of elitest jerks (people who only play ******-lists, even against rookies), which have driven many of our players into only playing at home or when they know I'll be at the shop. Yesterday, I got only two games of DW in because I spent the majority of my time answering WM/Hordes Rules questions for players playing league games. 

My stance of no proxies for sanctioned events is actually a rule in most games' Organized Play settings. And absent exigent circumstances (model dropped and shattered into pieces that morning type stuff) I enforce the company's rules.  I also don't loan the same models more than 2-3 times, as I want the companies, who makes the games I like to play, to make money and succeed, so I can continue to get updated product, new models, and support. People who continually allow proxies hurt the industry as bad or worse than elitests due to lost sales.

It's a fine line IMO, and my conscience is clear. I take it from your strong feelings you've had bad experiences with people whom you define as elitist. I'm confident from your description, if you played in my group you wouldn't lump us in that category. I'm fairly confident you wouldn't drop Strombole and his group in there either, but I'll let him defend himself. *

Like I started off with, I feel you may have been quick to judge - justifiably probably upon your past experiences and a lack of us further delineating our take on the matter (certainly at least in my case), which I hope I have now clarified. 

Cheers

* Edit to add - Durn guy beat me to it, and more succinctly said the same durn thing. Durn Ninja!



#17 Guest_Not In Sample_*

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 08:42 AM

I'm pretty sure it was me that he was referring to as the guys that laughed at the guy… because I did mention some laughing taking place :P

It just got attributed to Doriaya by mistake and then Shadow4ce thought it was directed at him… at least, that is what seems like has happened. My bad guys… I started all this so let me try to diffuse this by started a chant of "Kumbaya seniore, Kumbaya!"  :P

Seriously, its not a big deal.. we all have different rules in ourt gaming groups… and I know all about the whole customization in 40k. I played 40k for more than 15 years and had 12 differeent 40k armies at one time. I have since sold almost all of it in the past 6 months or so with only a 4000 point IG army left (and of course, tons of Lord of the Rings which I still love that game and will not sell, hell I may have to even bend over and take it back up the dumper from GW once again as there are some cool new models for the line coming out). The sales of those armies got me a ton of Dust Warfare, and probably more than 1000 star wars minis models and 5 different armies for Infinity… so I don't miss the 40k stuff. But I was a huge conversions guy. I scratch built units all over the place for units that weren't out yet because 40k was designed that way and encouraged it. I built my own heroes, etc. But one thing I always did was keep it WYSIWYG, which is also how 40k was meant to be. Back then it drove me crazy that I went out of my way making every single model WYSIWYG and having to play a guy with a landraider with no doors or weapons or dreads with no arms (I loved that guy and his armless GK psyrifle dreads) and have him tell me what kind it was… it pissed me off for years… so now that we are the senior honchos for Dust in the area, we set a different example.

But, as I have said many times, its just how we do it…. every group is free to handle the game as they see fit in their own group… the reality is in my area I am probably more resposible for more new people getting into Dust than any other factor, getting people at 3 different gaming stores along with personal friends into the game. The fact that I show up with 3 different armies and a couple thousand points worth of models, unit stat cards for every unit and 25 dice and stacks of markers each and every time I show up somewhere even when I know I am playing a certain faction with a certain point level ahead of time, speaks to my willingness to promote this great game and allow others to try out whatever they want without having the models themselves…. I bought all the heroes so you don't have to… I have the heavy tanks, so try them out… I have at least one of every unit so there is no unit you cannot try… other than ones that aren't available yet… you can try those when they are released and not before… Its just how we roll, its neither right nor wrong… its just how we do things… It doesn't make me right and you wrong…. We all do our part… I try to do mine in my own way and you have done yours as well… I write up all my lists by hand as its the way I prefer to do things, I'm a pen and paper guy, always will be, but I know tons of people that couldn't live without your force builder app…. so you do your thing for the game as well… Shadow4ce gives out more advice to memebers of the Dust community than probably everyone else combined… so he does his part as well…



#18 Doraiya

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:42 PM

Thread seriously derailed guys.

To get back on topic, we were discussing the use of Airborne Transports, not your personal stance on proxies. And for what it's worth, if you want to use the full options of an SSU army, you have to proxy the following as they have not been released;

Airborne Vehicle Transport

KV-47 Aero Variants

Mil Mi 47 Attack Helicopter Variants

Red Yana

Yakov

 

 



#19 Seblys

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 03:37 AM

DUST-GAME.com have the new minis up for preorder now, releasing late August.



#20 Doraiya

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:34 PM

Seblys said:

DUST-GAME.com have the new minis up for preorder now, releasing late August.

Yeah I noticed this yesterday, it's about damn time. Hopefully they release the mainstream line of these kits at the same time so i can finally round out my SSU army with glorious aircraft pwnage.






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