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Unusual Availability


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#1 Magus Black

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:52 PM

There are some items in the game that have some strange levels of availability, in some cases these items are either much rarer than they should be or are more common than the lore would suggest.

 

For example the Inferno Pistol is listed as Extremely Rare, but by lore (and its own description) there are ‘maybe’ a handful in an entire sector of space and are generally found in the hands of Inquisitors, Very-High ranking Adeptus Mechanicus, and some of greatest heroes of the Adeptus Sororitas. By all accounts this weapon is so rare that it really should have an availability of Near Unique.

In fact its so absurdly rare that it shouldn’t even be listed in the armoury (any more than a Daemonhammer or Railrifle), it just doesn’t make sense for Guardsman to have such a weapon.

In comparison the Force Weapons are far more common than the Inferno Pistols, found in the hands of many psykers across the Imperium (including those of under the Guard), is set at Near Unique but should be Extremely Rare. To writ a Player taking the Sanctioned Psyker specialization will eventually want a Force Weapon, for one reason or another, but with a “Near Unique” availability they have almost Zero chance to ever get one (baring GM fiat); yet they stand a better chance of getting the (in lore) much rarer Inferno Pistol.

In fact its so over-the-top rare that is doubtable that ‘any’ Sanctioned Psyker in the Imperial Guard actually has one.

Another item of bizarre rarity is, surprisingly, the Survival Suit.

This one actually avoided my sight for a moment until I remembered the Table 2-6 in the Regiment Creation Chapter, at which point I look back and realized it strangeness. The chart page 34 has the Survival Suite placed at 3 points, or Plentiful Availability, yet the armoury has the same item as Very Rare. Obliviously one of these is wrong.

Has anyone else found items that are either too Rare or too Common for what ‘should’ of been?

And just throwing this question out there as well: Do you see much point in having items over Extremely Rare listed in the Armoury? Or do you think the items are just there to troll Players? (I‘m looking at you Omni-Scope!!!)
 



#2 Shadow Walker

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 09:28 PM

I agree with all above.



#3 KommissarK

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 02:59 AM

I think its assumed players are going to be making alot of those Commerce tests to trade things they've found (especially from random mission gear), for more useful stuff.

As far as force weapons go, I am generally of the thinking that psykers should craft those, as they should be customized to the individual. Perhaps the near unique rating is the availability of a "general" force weapon.

I'll admit, I don't really care if an Inferno Pistol is only Extremely Rare instead of Near Unique. I will say I feel it should stay at Extremely Rare, as any firearm above that tends to be a named relic in my book.



#4 HTMC

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 07:33 AM

 I think there should be at least a handful of items at above extremely rare status, for two reasons at least:

1) It gives the PCs something to aspire to, and potential upgrades to eventually try and get in longer campaigns

2) It gives the GM things to potentially drop that would otherwise normally be outside the reach of PCs, and such drops are awesome motivators for PCs, plus it's a great feeling when you find something you thought you'd never be able to afford :-D.



#5 Magus Black

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 11:17 AM

KommissarK said:


As far as force weapons go, I am generally of the thinking that psykers should craft those, as they should be customized to the individual. Perhaps the near unique rating is the availability of a "general" force weapon.

 

I'll admit, I don't really care if an Inferno Pistol is only Extremely Rare instead of Near Unique. I will say I feel it should stay at Extremely Rare, as any firearm above that tends to be a named relic in my book.

For what I can remember about ‘human’ force weapons is that they’re all made by the Adeptus Mechanicus and the closest thing to a such a thing would be the Psy-Focus. Besides most Sanctioned Psykers will likely never have the skill to make such a complex device.

Well technically a ‘Named Relic’ would be of Unique-availability being anywhere from 1 to maybe a dozen or so in all existence. The Inferno Pistol is not-quite that rare (but close) so it would skirt by as being ’almost impossible’ to get.

…and if you can, however absurd it is, acquire an Inferno Pistol why not other ‘extraordinarily rare’ items?

HTMC said:


I think there should be at least a handful of items at above extremely rare status, for two reasons at least:
1) It gives the PCs something to aspire to, and potential upgrades to eventually try and get in longer campaigns
2) It gives the GM things to potentially drop that would otherwise normally be outside the reach of PCs, and such drops are awesome motivators for PCs, plus it's a great feeling when you find something you thought you'd never be able to afford :-D.


Well I guess at least the idea of items that are there for major awards is nice… but don’t forget this is the Imperial Guard, the only people that get credit for any ‘major’ accomplishment is officer in charge and not the grunts that did all the work (how else do those useless ‘Supine’ bastards hold their position, except by taking all the credit! ). Some GM’s will play it ‘truly like the Guard’ would be played and every accomplishment, no matter how astonishing, will be credited to the Highest Ranking Officer in the chain-of-command.

Though I suppose it depends entirely on the Commander Type; a Bilious, Fixed, Melancholic, Sanguine, or Supine type will likely never give out any special reward (at least of the Extremely Rare or Near Unique caliber).

On the flip-side acquiring these items on the Field is more hazardous to the Players health than the previous option. Since these weapon/gear are only found in the Imperium there are only two types of conflicts in which they can be found.

In the first is when the Players are squaring off against another Guard Regiment, for whatever the reason, and the gear is taken from your former allies. This can lead to some awkward moments latter if the Regiment in question wants that gear back. In addition many satirical Players may question exactly ‘how’ those items made it into the those Guardsmen’s hands in the first place, since they cant acquire them in the first place.

…Oh and almost forgot the most important part, they’ll likely be using that gear against you in the conflict. While the prospect of netting a Inferno Pistol or an ‘honest-to-badness’ Vindicare Rifle with an Omni-Scope, is obviously a natural high, three guesses to what weapons are pointed at your face. Most of the ultra-rare gear is powerful and can easily swing a difficult battle into a curb-stomp battle, some Players may not take kindly to the idea that the only way to get good gear is to risk TPK.

The second leads to some of the most Epic of Trolling, the items in question are in the hands of the “Lost and the Damned”. In this case no one is going to be asked for their gear back latter, if they do they’ll be shot for the heresy (and stupidity), but since these items are very rare they will likely be in the hands of the major units and those guys/gals will likely be neck-deep in Chaos. Which not only has the hazard of ending in TPK but may also result in the following:

Player 1: What do we find on his corpse?
GM: He has a Best-Quality Inferno Pistol and an Omni-Scope attachment, along with a Best-Quality Storm-Trooper Carapace Armour.
Player 1: Sweet!
GM: But its all been ‘Marked By Chaos’, so possession of this stuff will get you executed. In bad cases your whole squad will be executed…in the worst cases your Regiment may be executed by the Inquisition for possible corruption if you try to keep it. Plus if you do manage to keep it secret the items will bestow Insanity and Corruption points per day to the character wearing it.
Player 1:
Player 2 (Commissar): But I don’t want to execute everyone!
GM:


I suppose you could say that your group is sent on a side mission to ‘deny the enemy resources’ and have a bunch of high-end gear be sitting in boxes for the taking, but smart Players will eventually realize that your just tiring to find a way to reward them outside the normal system.

 



#6 Andor

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 12:32 PM

Yeah, it is an awkward aspect of the 40k universe that most of the good loot will get you shot.

Chaos stuff is right out. It's not only heretical, but actually hazardous.

Xenos gear might be acceptable, but it varies by race. Orc gear blows chunks for the greenless. Dark Eldar gear will cut you. Eldar stuff is probably kosher, but it's not that great really, and you'll run out of ammo by lunch. Tau weapopns are probably the best for looting, but you'll still have ammo problems and also will have to survive having Tau shoot at you with them first! Besides, most of the Imperium never sees the Tau who are technically stuck in one little corner of space.

For a lot of the other stuff you can find, it's probably okay to keep it, if you can file off the serial numbers and replace the stock with something that was not obviously designed to be used by tentacles. Who really can know for certain if that weird green laser rifle is xenos or archeotech? Only a Magos, and you'ld better pray you never have the subject come up around one!



#7 Musclewizard

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 02:07 PM

Andor said:

Yeah, it is an awkward aspect of the 40k universe that most of the good loot will get you shot.

Chaos stuff is right out. It's not only heretical, but actually hazardous.

Xenos gear might be acceptable, but it varies by race. Orc gear blows chunks for the greenless. Dark Eldar gear will cut you. Eldar stuff is probably kosher, but it's not that great really, and you'll run out of ammo by lunch. Tau weapopns are probably the best for looting, but you'll still have ammo problems and also will have to survive having Tau shoot at you with them first! Besides, most of the Imperium never sees the Tau who are technically stuck in one little corner of space.

For a lot of the other stuff you can find, it's probably okay to keep it, if you can file off the serial numbers and replace the stock with something that was not obviously designed to be used by tentacles. Who really can know for certain if that weird green laser rifle is xenos or archeotech? Only a Magos, and you'ld better pray you never have the subject come up around one!

Are you suggesting that GLORIOUS IMPERIAL WEAPON AND ARMOUR is not good enough for you? They they are not the best of the best? That there is some vile xenos, heretek, or other subhuman scum out there that could produce anything that would rival the GLORIOUS IMPERIUM OF MANKIND?
Because that sounds like heresy to me. You are hereby ordered to report to the nearest Comissar for a beating and subsequent reeducation.



#8 Snowman0147

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 03:03 PM

*Looks at Musclewizard who by his pic looks like a daemon prince and looks at Andor who looks like a guy with a skull mask.  Takes a moment to really think about things and then lefts a heavy flamer at Musclewizard.*

Back on topic yeah it does look like the imperial guard is stuck with low grade equipment, but then again that is fluff isn't it?  The guards are always screwed of the good stuff.  Well maybe there will be a supplements that will make the squad even more powerful when they have enough xp?



#9 JuankiMan

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 02:24 AM

Snowman0147 said:

 

Back on topic yeah it does look like the imperial guard is stuck with low grade equipment

 

 

Any starter character in DH would have drooled over the kind of equipment starter OW squads get. AP 4 flak, heavy weapons, chainswords, plasma guns, melta guns, hellguns, good quality bionics, ample ammunition, grenades!

Sure, compared to the stuff the Adeptus Astartes get IG equipment is trash, but they're very well supplied compared to almost every other regular Imperial citizen.

 



#10 Cifer

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 03:15 AM

@Magus Black

You are ignoring that gear can not only be acquired, it can also be assigned. Remember when in For the Emperor Cain's inquisitorial killteam got upgraded to hellguns and carapace for their last (rather suicidal) mission? If your squad works its way up through the ranks to gain that kind of assignment, similar wargear may be handed out.



#11 Magus Black

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 05:35 AM

Now now! Lets not bicker and argue about ‘who killed who’.

 


Cifer said:


@Magus Black
You are ignoring that gear can not only be acquired, it can also be assigned. Remember when in For the Emperor Cain's inquisitorial killteam got upgraded to hellguns and carapace for their last (rather suicidal) mission? If your squad works its way up through the ranks to gain that kind of assignment, similar wargear may be handed out.

There is a major difference though in assigning ‘relatively’ common gear and gear that so rare that no one outside the Adeptus Mechanicus even knows what it is. Hellguns and Carapace (Stormtrooper) Armour are, while not extremely common, are commonly know by most regiments (baring those that either never had Stormtroopers or have lost all hands) and can be acquired with minimal difficulty if pursued by the right people.

Your example isn’t quite fair either as the Inquisitor in question is rather nice compared to a majority of the Inquisition and she was dealing with the regiment that housed Ciaphas Cain, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM!!!. Also it was a kill-team lead not only by a Legend of the Imperium but backed by an Inquisitor your normal squad doesn’t compare to that.

“Assigned Gear” is not a way to cheat the system, its there to make up for shortcomings and lack of foresight.



#12 CaptainTrek

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 02:03 PM

Magus Black said:

“Assigned Gear” is not a way to cheat the system, its there to make up for shortcomings and lack of foresight.

Err, no… Assigned Wargear is there to allow the GM to assign the squad what he thinks they will need (or, more roundaboutly, what their higher-ups in the regiment think they will need) for tackling a particular mission without having to award them that gear permanently. It allows a great deal more flexibility than would otherwise be because if the GM comes across the rather common scenario of, "Well gee, I'd like to run the adventure this way, but they'd need this specific piece of gear they don't have in order to have a chance at it…", that thought can immediately be followed up by, "Oh yeah, I'll just add it to the Assigned Wargear… Gee, hope they don't screw up the Logistics test…"

The sample adventure illustrates this perfectly. You don't want to be assigning a line infantry squad a Chimera on a permanent basis, but those jungle cats are bloody brutal and most GMs would much rather it be the Orks that cut the PCs to pieces rather than the random animals. Solution? Assign them a Chimera… but only for this mission…



#13 JuankiMan

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 12:22 AM

Magus Black said:

 

“Assigned Gear” is not a way to cheat the system, its there to make up for shortcomings and lack of foresight.

 

 

You seem to forget the situational modifiers to the Logistics test. Depending of how many regiments they're fighting alongside with, how old the front is and for how long they've been deployed in it, the roll can be made significantly easier. Also, the better they do in their missions, the better chances they'll get of acquiring new gear, not only becaue their Logistics rating will increase but also because their side's stance in the conflict will improve. And if a Ceasefire is declared they get a whooping +30 to Logistic rolls, so they should use the brief respite to stock up. Also, a good Commerce roll, aided by something nifty to trade in, can make the roll significantly easier too.

Under the best possible conditions, acquiring an Unique item would have a +10 to their Logistic roll, which is hardly an impossible roll. 

So no, those high-end availability items are not there to troll players. They just have to be patient and wait for the right moment.



#14 Cifer

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 02:45 AM

@MagusBlack

I'm not quite sure what's unfair about the example. If an Inquisitor of whatever degree of niceness says "I want those men and I want them capable of achieving [mission objective]" most imperial commanders will assign whatever high-grade equipment they have on hand and deal with the yelling from the DepMun later.

Also, as CaptainTrek said, equipping people with stuff they will absolutely need to do their job is exactly what the mission assignment gear is about. If the regiment actually has an Inferno Pistol, the PCs are expected to kill something heavily armoured at close range but can't carry much additional gear and their mission is vital enough… Inferno Pistol it is.



#15 Magus Black

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 09:57 AM

QUOTE efidm=693685]
Err, no… Assigned Wargear is there to allow the GM to assign the squad what he thinks they will need (or, more roundaboutly, what their higher-ups in the regiment think they will need) for tackling a particular mission without having to award them that gear permanently. It allows a great deal more flexibility than would otherwise be because if the GM comes across the rather common scenario of, "Well gee, I'd like to run the adventure this way, but they'd need this specific piece of gear they don't have in order to have a chance at it…", that thought can immediately be followed up by, "Oh yeah, I'll just add it to the Assigned Wargear… Gee, hope they don't screw up the Logistics test…"
The sample adventure illustrates this perfectly. You don't want to be assigning a line infantry squad a Chimera on a permanent basis, but those jungle cats are bloody brutal and most GMs would much rather it be the Orks that cut the PCs to pieces rather than the random animals. Solution? Assign them a Chimera… but only for this mission…

 

…I cant quite tell if your trying to confound me or not?

I say: “Assigned Gear is not way to cheat the system its to make up for shortcomings and lack of foresight.”

You say “No its not.” and then provide an example that proves my statement as the correct one, I’m a tad bit confused here.

As I said though, its not a wish-list for the Players its “items of necessities” that are generally thought to be imperative to your regiments survival. Any non-reusable item that isn’t destroyed is meant to be returned upon completion, well some things ‘can’ be smuggled but the price would be high for failure, and the items that are received are ones that are available to be given out.

Most regiments don’t have the good fortune to be close to a forge world and have very limited supply of items beyond the very basic items, and sometimes not even then. Most of your Regiment Gear is very common among your group and its always fairly reasonable that repairs to those items (as well as limited trade) is possible a majority of the time…but this isn’t always the case.

Also Assigned Gear is dependant on Imperial Intelligence, which infamously well-known for being out-of-date or just blatantly wrong, and then there’s your own C.O. who may not be competent enough (Supine) to make sure your as prepared as you could be…which may prove to be a good lesson when creating your Regiment.

“Against the Savages” is indeed a good example, most the natural inhabitants are scarping by in terms of resources (all resources in fact), while their original saviors (the 4th Brontian Longknives) are also suffering for lack of resource as well. The arrival of your own Regiment is blessing to them for more than just man-power, you bring with you various resources that they are struggling to maintain.

Whether you Regiment is prepared or not is entirely of their own make and initiative. If you need rebreathers for going on to a toxic planet and you don’t have any or cant get any, TOUGH! Your going anyways, 100% fatality rate be damned! Your job Guardsman is to obey; hold the line; and fight and die in the Emperor’s Name. If you die by blade, bullet, or poison, you are expected to die pointing you weapon at the enemy…anything less is cowardness, and you know what happens to cowards in the Guard.

JuankiMan said:


You seem to forget the situational modifiers to the Logistics test. Depending of how many regiments they're fighting alongside with, how old the front is and for how long they've been deployed in it, the roll can be made significantly easier. Also, the better they do in their missions, the better chances they'll get of acquiring new gear, not only becaue their Logistics rating will increase but also because their side's stance in the conflict will improve. And if a Ceasefire is declared they get a whooping +30 to Logistic rolls, so they should use the brief respite to stock up. Also, a good Commerce roll, aided by something nifty to trade in, can make the roll significantly easier too.
Under the best possible conditions, acquiring an Unique item would have a +10 to their Logistic roll, which is hardly an impossible roll.
So no, those high-end availability items are not there to troll players. They just have to be patient and wait for the right moment.

I figure though that there is suppose to be some levels of common sense applied to the Logistics check, asking for something that none of the Regiments or local Ministrotum have is practically a automatic failure. Using the less than a dozen per sub-sector Inferno Pistol as an example, it doesn’t matter that you can make a Logistics or not; if there is only three in your sub-sector (one in the hands of an Inquisitor, another with the Warmaster, and the last with Her Holiness Saint Mary-Jane) you are not going to get one.

That’s why I was bit confused as to why the Inferno Pistol (which only appears in the Witch Hunter codex) is listed with the Imperial Guard, its so absurdly rare that it shouldn’t be there. As I also said above if Inferno Pistols, then why not Daemonhammers and Vindicare Rifles, and then it just escalates to even more absurd things.

Without some common sense being applied to Logistics then your going to have Guardsmen running around in Best-Quality Terminator Amour with Gauntlets of Ultramar, wielding the Sword of the Holy Emperor Himself…with their ‘pet’ Emperor-Class Titan and their ‘recently purchased’ Craftworld for Air-Support.


Cifer said:


I'm not quite sure what's unfair about the example. If an Inquisitor of whatever degree of niceness says "I want those men and I want them capable of achieving [mission objective]" most imperial commanders will assign whatever high-grade equipment they have on hand and deal with the yelling from the DepMun later.


That’s ‘just it’ an Inquisitor can get anything ‘if’ its available, if its not available then they make due without. The other ‘niceness’ part is just how Inquisitors work, even nice ones like Eisenhorn and Ravenor have simply walked up to squads/Regiments and simply dragged them into hell only with what they have and nothing else. Contrary to civilian belief, Inquisitors cant simply conjure up starships and ordinance at will, they can make the stumbling giant that is the Imperium pick itself up faster but only so much. Time constraints and simply the spur of the moment will determine how things go with them and those dragged along.

Cifer said:


Also, as CaptainTrek said, equipping people with stuff they will absolutely need to do their job is exactly what the mission assignment gear is about. If the regiment actually has an Inferno Pistol, the PCs are expected to kill something heavily armoured at close range but can't carry much additional gear and their mission is vital enough… Inferno Pistol it is.

The odds of your Regiment, any Regiment for that matter, having an Inferno Pistol lying around is almost less than 0, you have a higher chance of having Intermediate-Level Titan than one those guns. High Command bases what kind of gear they give out (if their component at least) based on its parameters and its availability:

Need an anti-armour weapon, they give you a meltagun.
Don’t have any Melta-weapons, then the more hazardous Plasma weapons then.
Got no Plasma Weapons, then maybe Hellguns or Autocannons will suffice.
None of the above available, then you do without.

Even if the items is available if you fail the Logistics roll then you don’t get it, and as my above Toxic Planet example you are expected to fight no matter how low the odds of victory or survival.

That's the Guard for you.






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