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Ritual Duels between Dark Angels and Space Wolves


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#1 aristodeimos

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 03:36 PM

 Do any of the books break down how to conduct a ritual duel between Dark Angels and Space Wolves?  I have a Dark Angel player that is about to encounter a whole slew of Space Wolves and I'm looking for cool ideas to make this more than just a 1-round first-blood contest.



#2 Gurkhal

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 10:35 AM

Don't know really but supposedly it could be fought with some primitive arms and perhaps without power armour and fight untill one side yields rather than first blood? Just some ideas but I'm sure other posters have better ones.



#3 aristodeimos

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 02:19 PM

Gurkhal said:

Just some ideas but I'm sure other posters have better ones.

 

Apparently not….



#4 Thebigjul

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 09:29 PM

I think if memory is accurate  that you can find a sword contest between imperial fist successor chapters in the book Legion of the Damned.

They make a contest in an arranged zone remembering the great assault of the Imperial fist upon the the fortress trap of Prospero during the battles of the heresy.

They fight in scout armor, weapons (2 gladius) are hidden in the battle field.

The price is the guard of the primarch sword.

The most important thing during such event is to translate the weight of the history upon the shoulders of the battle brothers as they mimic their primarch ages ago.



#5 Polaria

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:43 AM

Since Space Wolves are involved I would suggest Holmgang

Holmgang was fought on an ox hide or cloak with sides that were three meters long. It was staked on the ground with stakes used just for that purpose and placed in a specific manner now unknown. After that the area was marked by drawing three borders around the square hide, each about one foot from the previous one. Corners of the outermost border were marked with hazel staves. Combatants had to fight inside these borders. Stepping out of borders meant forfeiture, running away meant cowardice. Combatants were permitted a specific number of shields (usually three) they could use - the opponent's strikes could break a shield. The challenged would strike first and then the combatants would hit each other in turn.

Stripped to the waist, shield in one hand, non-powered melee weapon in other. Take swings in turns with a slight pause allowed to change a broken shield but with a limit of three shields total. Fought to yield.
 



#6 HTMC

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 06:53 AM

I don't know of specific description of the fight off-hand, but if you want to make it more interesting, the focus should obviously be on the ritual aspect. They are, while rivals, obviously still allies, so while it would be an all-out contest of skill, they theoretically would want to avoid actually injuring one another. Perhaps a way of doing this would trying to force the PC to roll a certain number of degrees of success: roll too few, and he doesn't hit the the target; roll too many, and he risks injuring the Space Wolf. Just an idea.



#7 Thebigjul

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 10:40 AM

SM trying to not harm each other…

Fight without danger, without glory?

Faking a fight, between proud war machine defending their chapter and primarch honor?

You're kidding?

Their body is a temple of war they wear their scars like jewels, they need to fight truly, that's why they are living!

In the legion of damned book there is dead SM during the contest, killed by the arena sometime or killed by their fellow battle brother.

There is nothing more worthy of shedding blood than honor for those warrior.

And even gravest injury can be healed by apothicary who would assist any of such challenge. And if not they fight bravely, a worthy death one that can be tell.

Don't forget who are the space marine and what they do when their honor, their chapter honor came in line.



#8 Thebigjul

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 10:41 AM

Sorry forgot about one little thing.

We are talking about space wolwes faking not even in their worst nightmare will a son of fenrys fight without all he's got.



#9 HappyDaze

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 04:11 PM

Thebigjul said:

Sorry forgot about one little thing.

We are talking about space wolwes faking not even in their worst nightmare will a son of fenrys fight without all he's got.

Yes, you can look at it that way, but you can also look at it as a ritual duel, not a battle. There are rules to the ritual duel, and while both warriors will go all out to attain victory, one can't attain victory by breaking the rules of the ritual. I could easily see the ritual as forbidding killing of the opponent - so far as to say that if either participant dies, both are considered to have lost (don't say that the one that dies is considered the winner or some idiot will commit suicide to gain an "honourable victory").

I suggest allowing only the combat knife as a weapon (although unarmed attacks are allowed) and both fight in power armour. The first warrior to become heavily injured (taken more Wounds than TBx2) or to be downed by Fatigue (primarily via Unarmed) is declared the loser. If one of the fighters dies, both are declared to have lost the duel.


Ignore, Ignore, you must learn Ignore!

 

Now Ignoring: Nobody.


#10 Thebigjul

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 09:31 PM

i agree with you, the kill will not be the aim of the duel, never. but victory is and sometime death occur and it is the fate of warrior to die by the blade. Don't forget that a SM not fight as good as he can will be insulting his oppement, he will think of this like it and the other warrior will be insulted seing his adversary considering him not worthy of a true fight.

Space Marine aren't afraid to lose blood, flesh or even part of them if it serve their honor, give them glory and make them proud of their chapter.

They will not seek to destroy each other but you never know a bad move a failed parry a ripping blade and the death knock at your soul door.

Don't punish the battle brother for killing if it was not his will. Playing with deathly weapon is dangerous and each space marine know about it, no blame will be charge upon the "killer". Un less he show a mercyless and killer like attitude like finishing his oppement unconscious or heavely injured. That would be a real act of war.

For your duel I can only suggest you to use scout armor and traditionnal blade of the chapter like Knight sworsd for the DA  and axe or blade from Fenrys for the space wolf. Knife can be cool too but cultural weapon can be quite an asset for the ritual background, something coming from the heart of the chapter history;



#11 aristodeimos

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Posted 10 August 2012 - 11:40 PM

 Awesome!  Thanks to all that replied…you really got the creative juices flowing.  I'll be using aspects of all your posts.  I'll report back later with the results.



#12 Ferrous82

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Posted 18 August 2012 - 07:25 AM

The "Ritual" duels between DA and SW are supposed to be legendary and meaningful. Traditionally this meant one champion vs. another. The champion was chosen by martial prowess. I would have it be melee only, until one champion was either dead or yielded. Each champion knows the risks before entering. The death of a champion isn't going to make the two chapters any more or less likely to fight each other. Dark Angels and Space Wolves have a rich history of rivalry, comraderie, and enmity each in healthy amounts.



#13 Sethis

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 12:31 AM

I would have thought it would be interesting to have it unarmed and unarmoured, a situation that Marines rarely find themselves fighting in.

Obviously have it non-lethal, but the huge strength and resilience of Marines lets them fight like real brawlers, demolishing their surroundings and delivering blows that would kill a human. Go through every move blow-by-blow. Encourage called strikes. Create rules for arm locks, headlocks and so on. Get your PC to mime out his fighting moves (and get everyone else cheering him on and shouting suggestions, just like battle brothers would). Tell him in detail what the environment is like, so he can use it to his advantage, and have the NPC do the same. For example, if fighting in a wood, tell them there are saplings nearby that he can rip out of the ground and use as a staff. If fighting in a room, tell him he can pick up tables, poles, wall panels and throw them. If fighting in sand, tell him he can throw it or kick it into his opponents eyes. Have the opponent do all of the above to him. Have the fight move from one location to another (throwing one of them out of a window, into a river or sea, into a muddy ditch or down a hill) and have the spectators follow suit.

If you read the Lion vs the Wolf story, the Primarchs literally rip apart the hall they are fighting in. Have your marines do the same.



#14 Thebigjul

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Posted 21 August 2012 - 10:53 PM

Sethis said:

I would have thought it would be interesting to have it unarmed and unarmoured, a situation that Marines rarely find themselves fighting in.

Obviously have it non-lethal, but the huge strength and resilience of Marines lets them fight like real brawlers, demolishing their surroundings and delivering blows that would kill a human. Go through every move blow-by-blow. Encourage called strikes. Create rules for arm locks, headlocks and so on. Get your PC to mime out his fighting moves (and get everyone else cheering him on and shouting suggestions, just like battle brothers would). Tell him in detail what the environment is like, so he can use it to his advantage, and have the NPC do the same. For example, if fighting in a wood, tell them there are saplings nearby that he can rip out of the ground and use as a staff. If fighting in a room, tell him he can pick up tables, poles, wall panels and throw them. If fighting in sand, tell him he can throw it or kick it into his opponents eyes. Have the opponent do all of the above to him. Have the fight move from one location to another (throwing one of them out of a window, into a river or sea, into a muddy ditch or down a hill) and have the spectators follow suit.

If you read the Lion vs the Wolf story, the Primarchs literally rip apart the hall they are fighting in. Have your marines do the same.

Space marines never fight non lethal combat, not deathly combat maybe but none lethal?

They are not humanist prizing the life and health … They are genetic construct and breed killers!

Go play Barbie and make non lethal tea party or even invite all your girl and boy friend and make a super party from 1 PM to 4pm because after it's too late…

What the F****!

You are playing space marine and they never , never make an honour question light or unimportant!

Destroy the place the fight take place is of courrse a cinematic action that will pay for your players making then even more proud of them but the fight need blood and guts believe me.



#15 SonofDorn

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 08:50 AM

 I'd have them go at it like Russ and Johnson did it; bare-handed until one of them was knocked unconscious.  It stays true to the reason why they fight each other and honor is satisfied without either Chapter losing a Battle Brother.


"The soul of the Imperial Fist can be found in his sword."

 


#16 Sethis

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 02:19 AM

Thebigjul said:

 

Space marines never fight non lethal combat, not deathly combat maybe but none lethal?

They are not humanist prizing the life and health … They are genetic construct and breed killers!

Go play Barbie and make non lethal tea party or even invite all your girl and boy friend and make a super party from 1 PM to 4pm because after it's too late…

What the F****!

You are playing space marine and they never , never make an honour question light or unimportant!

Destroy the place the fight take place is of courrse a cinematic action that will pay for your players making then even more proud of them but the fight need blood and guts believe me.

Sorry to disappoint, but Marines train in non-lethal fights. Read the Horus Heresy books and the Training Cages - they can be set for lethal matches, but it is rare and unusual. Likewise, during early training Marines shoot at targets etc.

There are only a million Space Marines to defend the entire Imperium. Their lives are too precious to waste needlessly, and that includes honour duels.

A duel could be lethal in the case of one brother having betrayed another, or some really serious offence, but as a regular occurence? I don't think so. If they were fighting on a bridge over a chasm, and one was about to fall off, the other would grab him and save his life. The point is not to kill, the point is to satisfy honour and obligation.



#17 Zappiel

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 10:40 AM

Hey Bigjul, big guy!

Yes, you've misinterpreted the Lion versus Wolf duel - it is NOT about winning; it is about HONOUR.  Win or lose is irrelevant; what matters is maintaining the Chapter's honour, brother.

For example, how will the assembled ranks of Lions and Wolves react if your victory-or-death spacewolf cheats in order to win?  Will his brother wolves cheer his glorious victory?  Will the Lions ever forget??  And what if a Lion cheats:  will such a dishonourable champion continue to rise through the Dark Angel rank circles?  Will the wolves sit by and watch their brother suffer defeat at the hands of a cheat??

You can well imagine.  This is not an all-out berzerk fest of imperial fist inferiority-complex-mania.  This is about honour.  Remember, after the original primarch fight, the Lion and the Wolf fought alongside eachother as brothers and, indeed, friends.  The chapters are NOT enemies; rivals, yes, with diametrically opposing martial philosophies; but hardly could any other two chapters respect each other more.

So, onto topic, what our group did was an unarmoured fist fight, as per the original battle, as suggested here by others.  Another option i'm keen to try is an armoured knife fight (as demonstrated in artwork in one of the sourcebooks:  Dark Angel and Space Wolf back to back with sneers on their faces and knives drawn - awesomesauce!)  Such a knife fight would NOT be to the death; but it'd be one f#!k of a good fight.



#18 Ferrous82

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:01 AM

I like the idea of an armored knife fight. It takes a lot of work to actually kill another astartes with those knives, even as big as they are. The fight stops on a yield, or on an incapacitation via zero wounds. Critical damage may happen, but thats what apothecaries are for. I think a duel between a Wolf and a Lion should leave scars. How better to honor the tradition than to bear the scars of such a bond.



#19 Zappiel

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 11:27 AM

Indeed!  My only concern is how long the freakin' battle might take……..



#20 Sethis

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:17 PM

What about keeping on gauntlets, forearm plates, and all armour from the waist down? "Shirts off" as it were. So no helmet, no chestplate, no backpack, no shoulderpads etc.

Give them Armour 4 or so instead of armour 8/10. Might quicken things up a bit. Enjoy the impacts as they deliver power-armoured kicks into unarmoured midriffs, and punch bare faces with gauntlets on, while blocking knife attacks with an open palm and  knee strikes.






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