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Shooting into 'combat', and others


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#1 Trasvi

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 08:45 PM

 I'm trying to get players in my area into Dust Warfare, which is an uphill battle at times as many people are very entrenched in their favourite rule sets (Warmachine, Infinity, 40k). 

The game I played yesterday against a new player, him with Allies and me with Axis, brought up a point that I'm fairly certain I played right, but turned my opponent off the game. This was:

 

Are there any restrictions on shooting at units in 'close combat'?

 

His unit of Hammers/Rhino got into combat with my Heavy Laser Grenadiers, I survived, and in return fired my Heavy Flak Grenadiers and a nearby flamethrower into them. He said (and I agreed) that it seemed a bit odd that I could use a flamethrower on his troops, which were standing behind my own troops, and not hit my own guys. I didn't know how to respond to this…

 

A few more little questions arose:

1) Cover and Armour reduces Damage, not Hits, correct? (ie, 3 1/3 hits causes 9 damage, which he then reduces using cover and saves)

2) Can you use a Take Action - Attack Order to split fire, and thus put suppression on multiple units without provoking reactions?

3) Heavy Flak grenadiers seem to provide a nearly identical role to Heavy Recon Grenadiers, but better and at a lower cost. (less dice against I2 compensated for by ability to Burst and dice against A3, in the rare case that you actually need more anti-I2 firepower. Similarly Battle/Recon grenadiers seem to trump Laser Grenadiers. Not really rules question, but do other people find this?



#2 Doraiya

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:12 PM

Trasvi said:

 I'm trying to get players in my area into Dust Warfare, which is an uphill battle at times as many people are very entrenched in their favourite rule sets (Warmachine, Infinity, 40k). 

The game I played yesterday against a new player, him with Allies and me with Axis, brought up a point that I'm fairly certain I played right, but turned my opponent off the game. This was:

 

Are there any restrictions on shooting at units in 'close combat'?

 

His unit of Hammers/Rhino got into combat with my Heavy Laser Grenadiers, I survived, and in return fired my Heavy Flak Grenadiers and a nearby flamethrower into them. He said (and I agreed) that it seemed a bit odd that I could use a flamethrower on his troops, which were standing behind my own troops, and not hit my own guys. I didn't know how to respond to this…

 

A few more little questions arose:

1) Cover and Armour reduces Damage, not Hits, correct? (ie, 3 1/3 hits causes 9 damage, which he then reduces using cover and saves)

2) Can you use a Take Action - Attack Order to split fire, and thus put suppression on multiple units without provoking reactions?

3) Heavy Flak grenadiers seem to provide a nearly identical role to Heavy Recon Grenadiers, but better and at a lower cost. (less dice against I2 compensated for by ability to Burst and dice against A3, in the rare case that you actually need more anti-I2 firepower. Similarly Battle/Recon grenadiers seem to trump Laser Grenadiers. Not really rules question, but do other people find this?

To answer your question simply and quickly, you can't be 'in combat', and you can't shoot at friendly units. So say a unit had unobstructed view of an enemy unit that just used an attack action on an adjacent friendly unit, then you could attack that unit. 

Thibk of how you assault vehicles in 40k, but the vehicle fights back



#3 Trasvi

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:30 PM

 ** Maybe I was unclear, I'm firing at his combat troops, which are very close to my troops and attacking them with combat weapons.

Does it seem odd to you that you can use indiscriminate weapons (Burst/Spray), or large guns (Long Toms, 8.8cm shells) when your units are immediately close by? I understand that the rules let you, but it seems a bit… odd.



#4 Pael

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 02:47 AM

Trasvi said:

 

A few more little questions arose:

1) Cover and Armour reduces Damage, not Hits, correct? (ie, 3 1/3 hits causes 9 damage, which he then reduces using cover and saves)

2) Can you use a Take Action - Attack Order to split fire, and thus put suppression on multiple units without provoking reactions?

3) Heavy Flak grenadiers seem to provide a nearly identical role to Heavy Recon Grenadiers, but better and at a lower cost. (less dice against I2 compensated for by ability to Burst and dice against A3, in the rare case that you actually need more anti-I2 firepower. Similarly Battle/Recon grenadiers seem to trump Laser Grenadiers. Not really rules question, but do other people find this?

 

1- Yes it is damage soft cover and armor for a I2 units will reduce anywhere from 1 to 3 DAMAGE.

2- Yes but to cause suppression you would need to deal at least one hit or it is an auto for some weapons. I have noticed that splitting fire for some weapons is very ineffective. This question brings up one of my favorite aspects of Dust. It actually represents cover fire and keeping your head down. I love it

3- I haven't played Axis much but I too have seen the apparent weakness of Laser Grenadiers. 



#5 Shadow4ce

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 06:53 AM

 The way I got my group (all WM vets) to wrap their heads around, "firing into melee" issue is a stepped process…

  • 1947 firearms are a lot different than Steampunk black powder rifles, bows, crossbows, etc.
  • Nobody has swords & Battle-axes anymore
  • If I'm not literally wrestling with someone (reacting to a CC attack, I'm going to shoot them with my automatic rifle or smg.
  • CC is an action, not a status or state of being. 
  • WWII combat isn't a fencing match. 
  • Movement of little men on the field is constant, but the rules require a static position for measurements when attacks occur. As such, their location is an approximation. 
  • Finally, your specific query if how do flame-throwers and grenades not kill both units, we finally decided that if someone yells get down in German, the guys who are Germans will get out of the way if the hurt train while the English or Russian speakers are focussed on why did the guy fighting me drop behind that rock/walk/rubble/rise/ditch etc., just before the hurt train starts. 

Pael had great answers for your additional questions to which I'll only add this…

Once Winter Child and the other Soldier 4 heroes hit the battlefield, even people who haven't figured out how to make them work otherwise will find a reason to field Laser Grenadiers. 



#6 VelosaRaptor

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 07:40 PM

great answer to that question shadow4ce, it's like people think your troops will just stand there while their own army shoots a flame thrower towards them. lol it is a common sense game with not to over complex rule base, it is very fun game.



#7 MRex21

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Posted 24 November 2012 - 05:26 PM

Shadow4ce said:

 The way I got my group (all WM vets) to wrap their heads around, "firing into melee" issue is a stepped process…

  • 1947 firearms are a lot different than Steampunk black powder rifles, bows, crossbows, etc.
  • Nobody has swords & Battle-axes anymore
  • If I'm not literally wrestling with someone (reacting to a CC attack, I'm going to shoot them with my automatic rifle or smg.
  • CC is an action, not a status or state of being. 
  • WWII combat isn't a fencing match. 
  • Movement of little men on the field is constant, but the rules require a static position for measurements when attacks occur. As such, their location is an approximation. 
  • Finally, your specific query if how do flame-throwers and grenades not kill both units, we finally decided that if someone yells get down in German, the guys who are Germans will get out of the way if the hurt train while the English or Russian speakers are focussed on why did the guy fighting me drop behind that rock/walk/rubble/rise/ditch etc., just before the hurt train starts. 

Pael had great answers for your additional questions to which I'll only add this…

Once Winter Child and the other Soldier 4 heroes hit the battlefield, even people who haven't figured out how to make them work otherwise will find a reason to field Laser Grenadiers. 

Perfect!

I should have that printed out on a card to give to folks.






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