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#1 inqb

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:09 AM

 Is this errata a joke?

You just have to add a catalyst.

Like Star Crown Fragments + Innovation.

Or even simpler: single Order In Chaos and you're good to go…



#2 Teokrata

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 11:30 AM

inqb said:

 Is this errata a joke?

You just have to add a catalyst.

Like Star Crown Fragments + Innovation.

Or even simpler: single Order In Chaos and you're good to go…

 

unfortunately "inqb" is right, Like Star Crown Fragments + Innovation for 5 resources still allows the player to loop 1x Arcane Power to infinity

added keyword "limited" as errata is probably the best option without killing the card, becouse restriction also isn't a solution…



#3 Ellyrik

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 07:28 PM

 I wanted it to be limited too. But a 5-card infinite loop doesn't seem to bother the designers.



#4 Teokrata

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 12:55 AM

after FAQ 1.8 two Gathering the Winds one Arcane Power any expendable spell for 0-1 cost and Legend still allows to draw all deck for free, drop 3rd Wind, loop with Eagles and win… LIMITED for Arcane Power is the only way to stop abusing this card. There are no other way…



#5 inqb

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 02:28 AM

I was a little to eager to post my opinion. 5x resources from Innovation is not that easy to achieve and Star Crown Fragments is pretty useless, expensive card. Order in Chaos also doesn't work - it won't fetch AP back to hand, but only on top of deck…

Current wording of the card is ok. It still allows you to do cool things, but it's not OP.

 How do you loop 1x Arcane Power with 2x Gathering the Winds? As far as I can see you need 3x GtW, so it's very unlikely to trigger…



#6 Teokrata

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 09:21 PM

inqb said:

How do you loop 1x Arcane Power with 2x Gathering the Winds? As far as I can see you need 3x GtW, so it's very unlikely to trigger…

 

You have a legend or artifact in the game, 2 gathering the winds, some expendable spell for 0-1 like Scroll or Sight and 1 Arcane Power.

You play both spell to get tokens on supports, then You use Gathering to play for Example Scroll and Arcane Power from discard. The first resolved spell is Scroll, support is discarded by the effect, but according to FAQ 1.8 second spell will be resolved too. So, You resolve Arcane Power, draw a card and return Gatheirng to hand. You play support from hand and use second Gathering the Winds to do the same. On each chain You draw a card, so You can draw all deck, make infinity resources with Convocation and just put 3rd Gathering into play to produce infinity tokens to do infinity indirect damage.

 2x Gathering + 1x expendable spell + 1 arcane power + legend/artefact = draw all deck for free and win

FAQ 1.8:

The Spell is played when the resolution of the action chain reaches the spot where Gathering the Winds was triggered. The played Spell cannot be canceled or responded to. It will be resolved and discarded. After the Spell is discarded the “then” effect on Gathering the Winds triggers, and it is sacrificed. Also, once the action chain is resolving you can no longer trigger new actions. So even though the playing of the Spell triggers the “Forced:” effect on Gathering the Winds, there is no opportunity to trigger its “Action:” again to play another Spell. You can, however, play multiple Spells with Gathering the Winds, provided you have the tokens to do so, as Gathering the Winds does not leave play until after a Spell it plays is resolved. All Spells will be played in reverse order when the chain resolves (even after Gathering the Winds leaves play, as effects exist independently of their source).



#7 inqb

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 10:10 PM

 I see. That's cool.

Should've RTFM first ;)



#8 Teokrata

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Posted 07 August 2012 - 11:33 PM

inqb said:

 

 I see. That's cool.

 

 

IMBA is more correct word… In my opinion drawing all deck for free is too powerful and similar to 2x Arcane Power Kurt the legend combo.

And one more thing - that is almost unstopable, becouse there are no responces like Drain Magic or Disdain to cards played from Winds.

With RTG HE can return units from discard, with Winds all spells and with Arcane and Star Crown they can get all needed cards back…

 

errata for Arcane Power is not enough, only "limited" is the solution

 



#9 inqb

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 12:31 AM

Teokrata said:

And one more thing - that is almost unstopable, becouse there are no responces like Drain Magic or Disdain to cards played from Winds.

Why? The spell is normally played, so why wouldn't you be able to counter it?

Bear in mind, that we have plenty of other loops (e.g. Lelansi, RTG) but none of them is as deadly as Kurt with 2xAP was…



#10 Mallumo

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Posted 08 August 2012 - 05:29 AM

The Q&A for Gathering states "The played Spell cannot be canceled or responded to."

 

Well, it's powerful no doubt. But it also requires at least three additional cards to launch, compared to Arcane Kurt, which could launch and win the game as soon as it had five resources (plus loyalty for Kurt) and a total of three required cards (guaranteed to find the fourth, Pigeon Bombs). If you're going with Eltharion instead of Pigeon Bombs for the indirect damage, there is also at least the possibility the opponent can cancel the indirect damage. I'm not convinced yet it is reliable and fast enough to require fixing. The more requirements an infinite loop has and the longer it takes to set up, the easier it is to disrupt or outrace. Apparently the devs aren't opposed to infinite loops per se, so they might be okay with this incarnation. In the end it'll probably depend on how dominant it is.



#11 Teokrata

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 03:13 AM

POLAND is no longer waiting for FFG in that case, during our National Championships 25-26.08.2012 Arcane Power is LIMITED. HE, Empire and Dwarves can do really insane infinity things without that rule and we want to play "normal" championships not "who first starts the combo"

FFG - please do that officialy for all Invasion players on the world



#12 Mallumo

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 06:59 AM

Gee, maybe there'll be a petition soon …

 

Seriously, if the Polish community as a whole feels that strongly about Arcane Power and its errata, there must be something to it. It would certainly help though if the Polish community shared more with the non-Polish-speaking community, so that we could understand better. Speaking for myself, I currently have problems seeing the big difference between elaborate Arcane Power loops, and elaborate Return to Glory loops, or elaborate Fists of Mork loops, or any other elaborate loop, or Reclaiming the Fallen / Dwarf Ranger, which also can be an instant game winner. If you are all convinced Arcane Power is so much worse, please explain why. The couple of posts above don't do it for me personally.

 

I'm certainly willing to believe your perception is accurate, but even if it is, I don't think your reaction of house-ruling the card will help your cause. It's rare enough that a card gets an errata so soon after its release. I believe that if it really does need another or different errata, the devs need to see there is a need for it. They need to see that the card is harmful the way it is currently worded, by being too powerful or too much in opposition to the spirit of the game. They need to see that strategies based on this card are too powerful in practice, that it's not all just theory. Are the current Arcane Power builds fast enough to consistently outrace rush? Can they consistently withstand Destruction decks beating down on them? Can they consistently get past the cancellation effects other Order builds have? If players find answers, if the meta can handle Arcane Power builds, they are merely one of several strong options, not something so much better than everything else that it requires fixing. The best way for the devs to see the card needs fixing is if it gets used in big tournaments, when its superiority isn't theoretical, but proven in practice. If you want to prove your point that there's a need for an errata, you need to play with the card as it is. Do you think Mining Tunnels and Reclaiming the Fallen would have got restricted if everyone had simply agreed not to play Dwarf decks back in the day, do you think there would have been a need to ban Visit the Haunted City if everyone had just house-ruled it? To prove that something is abusive, you need to abuse it.



#13 Virgo

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 07:38 AM

Mallumo said:

 

Gee, maybe there'll be a petition soon …

 

 

Don't tempt us Also: the petitions, however silly some posts were, resulted in banishment of VTHC and restriction of Empire.

 

Mallumo said:

 

To prove that something is abusive, you need to abuse it.

 

 

I'm not sure if polish community is willing to sacrifice national championships to prove that something is wrong. Players are not testers and FFG is not Ubisoft. At least I hope so



#14 Teokrata

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 07:59 AM

I think that Polish community will not share their most powerful Arcane Power decklists before World Championships, where AP is not "limited". Polish National Champion WILL BE present on World Championships in USA and probably will show everyone how powerful Arcane Power deck can be ;-) But we don't want to play our the most important tournament without limitation to Arcane Power.



#15 Mallumo

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 09:29 AM

Now you just sound arrogant.

 

Again, I'm not at all saying you are wrong, but if you think Arcane Power requires further / different errata, you need to explain how the loops it enables are so much worse than the other possible loops and instant-win combinations, and you need to proof the Arcane Power decks can win a majority of matches against all other types of decks. If you can't or won't, one will have to presume you are wildly exaggerating the situation. You also won't get the errata you want. If you have proof but refuse to share it so one of your players will have an advantage at World's, believing no one else will figure it out, you are arrogant indeed and, again, an Arcane Power deck winning World's won't suffice as proof.

 

You can't just make claims like that, refuse to back them up, and expect to get what you want. Make up your mind. 



#16 Mallumo

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 09:41 AM

And as for the idea that those silly petitions lead to the Empire restrictions: You got it backwards. Correlation does not imply causation. What the devs did back then was observe. For a long time. They got proof. You are asking for an immediate change and deny a way to obtain proof it is necessary at all. It's not a matter of demanding something often enough, simply claiming the card is overpowered again and again, it is one of the card showing itself to be overpowered in tournaments. You can petition and demand parallel to that, but it's not what counts.



#17 Jaszczurr

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 10:04 AM

From my point of view both Teokrata and Mallurmo are right but in different aspects

I agree with Teo that Arcane is too powerfull - drawing whole deck and discard is too strong - imagine Reclaiming deck with Rangers but unlimited times, while Empire and HE decks are even stronger

In contrary Mallurmo is right - it haven't abused meta yet (it just won one regional tournament in Poland). Maybe it has to have its time in winning all the tournaments and be the "bad deck" as Visit the Haunted City was.

Some of you know me, and know that I am a "comboing player", but in my opinion Arcane decks are too strong and too easy to play. When the winner is defined not by deckbuilding and play, but copying a deck and having luck that something is wrong.

 

BR,

Jaszczur



#18 tystax

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 11:31 AM

The evil of arcane power is that your opponent cannot stop combo. Other infinte combos like orcish fists require units on table which is easy to counter cause there is a lot of actions that can destroy units. Arcane power combo doesn't need anything, you just need to draw 3 cards and get resources for legend. There is no way to counter that. The worst was empire combo. It was winning in 2 or 3 turn, you could only watch how you lost. Change in arcane power that you cannot back arcane power form discard made things little better but still arcane power combo is to strong, now you only need to have 1 catalysator like order in chaos, star crown fragments or gathering the wind. HE for example need only eltharion on table,  2 gathering the wind, 1 arcane power and spell with cost 0. First wind is gathering resources for eltharions indirects, and second is for  infinite loop with arcane power (arcane power played from garhering the wind can back the same gathering from discard after it is sacraficed). 

Arcane Power decks dominated meta in Poland. It won all local tournaments. Common decks don't have chance to win. There is 2 types of decks: arcane power combo and other.



#19 Mallumo

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 11:59 AM

Jaszczurr said:

Some of you know me, and know that I am a "comboing player", but in my opinion Arcane decks are too strong and too easy to play. When the winner is defined not by deckbuilding and play, but copying a deck and having luck that something is wrong.

 

That doesn't really have anything to do with Arcane Power though. We live in the times of netdecking and have to accept it. Whatever happens to be the strongest deck at the time will get imitated and copied. You don't need to be a good player to have a strong deck these days.

 

I have to repeat myself again: I'm sure you, the Polish players, aren't just claiming AP is overpowered without good reason. I just think the devs won't issue errata unless they are convinced, and they can't be convinced if people aren't playing the card as written. And there is still time. If AP really is broken it needs to be demonstrated to the devs soon, so they can react before World's. If it isn't demonstrated, they surely won't do anything about it, and then we can't complain if World's is decided by who happens to be lucky enough to draw into his combo first.



#20 Mallumo

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Posted 09 August 2012 - 12:15 PM

tystax said:

The evil of arcane power is that your opponent cannot stop combo. Other infinte combos like orcish fists require units on table which is easy to counter cause there is a lot of actions that can destroy units. Arcane power combo doesn't need anything, you just need to draw 3 cards and get resources for legend. There is no way to counter that. The worst was empire combo. It was winning in 2 or 3 turn, you could only watch how you lost. Change in arcane power that you cannot back arcane power form discard made things little better but still arcane power combo is to strong, now you only need to have 1 catalysator like order in chaos, star crown fragments or gathering the wind. HE for example need only eltharion on table,  2 gathering the wind, 1 arcane power and spell with cost 0. First wind is gathering resources for eltharions indirects, and second is for  infinite loop with arcane power (arcane power played from garhering the wind can back the same gathering from discard after it is sacraficed). 

Arcane Power decks dominated meta in Poland. It won all local tournaments. Common decks don't have chance to win. There is 2 types of decks: arcane power combo and other.

 

See, this just sounds exaggerated to me. And like you're contradicting yourself. It's not like Arcane Power doesn't need anything. There is no doubt that Kurt + 2 Arcane Power was way too easy, but if you need a 6+4L legend and two supports in play, plus two cards in hand, how the heck are you reliably faster than a good rush deck? How do you reliably get to draw all the cards you need, play a legend and keep it alive, against Destruction decks hitting you with massive unit and support removal?

 

Could it be a case of most players, or most of the best players, playing these AP decks, and the results being influenced by that? If the majority at a tournament plays AP, it's no surprise AP wins.

 

Speaking of which, how many tournaments have you had since the errata was issued seven days ago? It doesn't matter how well AP decks did before that.

 

 






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