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Greedy and Player Turn Order


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#1 skullcap

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 07:33 AM

 I have two questions…

1- When Tomble uses his 'greedy' ability to search a search token up to three spaces away, is he prevented from doing so if monsters block his path to the search token?

2- Do players have to determine their turn order before the they start taking their turns, or can the decide what order they will play in as the round proceeds?

 

The rule book does nto clarify either of these issues.  Thanks for your help.



#2 wootersl

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 07:40 AM

The first issue about line of sight would have to be a call by your party. I would have to say that line of sight doesn't matter. I look at it like a sixth sense, the Hero just "knows" what's there. If the power allowed him to actually get the item 3 squares away, then I might rule line of sight.

The second issue is specifically stated on pg 7. "Each round, the hero players decide as a group the order in which they wish to act. This order may be different each round. If they cannot all agree on an order, they proceed clockwise, starting with the player seated to the left of the overlord.". So, the order must be determined before any Hero acts.



#3 KristoffStark

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 07:40 AM

skullcap said:

 

 I have two questions…

1- When Tomble uses his 'greedy' ability to search a search token up to three spaces away, is he prevented from doing so if monsters block his path to the search token?

2- Do players have to determine their turn order before the they start taking their turns, or can the decide what order they will play in as the round proceeds?

 

The rule book does nto clarify either of these issues.  Thanks for your help.

 

 

1. If a game ability does not specify that it needs line of sight, then it doesn't.

2. I've never seen anything that implies that players must define their order of activation before they start.



#4 skullcap

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 07:45 AM

wootersl said:

 

If the power allowed him to actually get the item 3 squares away, then I might rule line of sight.

 

 

 

The ability does indeed allow him to get the items from three spaces away.  I am assuming that the greedy ability means he can move faster if motivated by treasure, thus he would be blocked by monsters.

 



#5 skullcap

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 07:48 AM

KristoffStark said:

 

1. If a game ability does not specify that it needs line of sight, then it doesn't.

2. I've never seen anything that implies that players must define their order of activation before they start.

 

 

 

 

Where in the rules does it say that if a game ability does not specify los, then it dosen't?  I could not find that.  

Also, the rules do seem to imply that the players need to determine the order of play before starting to take their actions.



#6 wootersl

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 08:03 AM

skullcap said:

KristoffStark said:

 

1. If a game ability does not specify that it needs line of sight, then it doesn't.

2. I've never seen anything that implies that players must define their order of activation before they start.

 

 

 

 

Where in the rules does it say that if a game ability does not specify los, then it dosen't?  I could not find that.  

Also, the rules do seem to imply that the players need to determine the order of play before starting to take their actions.

Because the line of sight rules only apply to combat. LOS is not discussed in the section for Skills or special abilities. So, unless the text on said card said "this requires LOS", then line of sight is not required to use it. So, yes, if the search icon is on the other side of a door or wall, but only 3 squares away then he can use his ability. I presume that the creators did not take this into consideration and my spidey sense tell me an errata on LOS or his ability will rear it's ugly head before long.



#7 skullcap

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 08:51 AM

wootersl said:

 

 

 

 

 

Because the line of sight rules only apply to combat. LOS is not discussed in the section for Skills or special abilities. So, unless the text on said card said "this requires LOS", then line of sight is not required to use it. So, yes, if the search icon is on the other side of a door or wall, but only 3 squares away then he can use his ability. I presume that the creators did not take this into consideration and my spidey sense tell me an errata on LOS or his ability will rear it's ugly head before long.

 

 

 

 

But it is not LOS issue, it is a movement issue.  Presumedly, the greedy ability makes him move faster due to his love of treasure.  being greedy does not suddenly give a person the ability to teleport treasure.  We must presume that he can quickly move to and from a treasure chest due to his greed.  So.. the issue here is that since he would need to physically pick up what he is getting, he would need to move past the monsters to do so.  

The relevant text in the rule book is on page 13 with the heading 'counting spaces'.  It says that for abilities where counting spaces is needed, you ignore LOS, but you are still obstructed by terrain obstacles and doors.  It does not specify the effect of other obstacles (monsters), so it is unclear what the intent of the design team was.  



#8 KristoffStark

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:09 AM

skullcap said:

Where in the rules does it say that if a game ability does not specify los, then it dosen't?  I could not find that.  

Also, the rules do seem to imply that the players need to determine the order of play before starting to take their actions.

Counting Spaces, top of page 13:

"Counting Spaces
Some abilities require players to count the spaces from a figure to the target of the ability. When counting spaces for attacks and abilities, players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces (see “Terrain” on page 18). The player just needs to verify that his target is in range for the ability to reach the target. If an ability affects figures within a specified number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted. However, when counting spaces for an ability, players cannot count spaces through a door because the spaces are not considered adjacent."

Now, I realize, having read this again, that it's talking about "abilities," and not specficially the actions available from Class Cards.

I also realize that it is speaking of when "an ability affects figures," but I don't see why a search token would be substantially different.

I understand the phrase "If an ability affects figures within a specified number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted," to be generic enough to apply to other actions and targets as well.

 

I have read that there are players who think the rules imply that the decision on turn order must be decided before the first hero activates, but I just don't see that.  I imagine they're referencing the phrase:
"Each round, the hero players decide as a group the order in which they wish to act. This order may be different each round."
This phrasing might be considered to imply that this decision is made a the beginning of each round, but nowhere is this explicitly stated.

For a differing point of view, I point to the following from the Hero Turn Summary:
"After the player flips his Activation card, another hero begins his turn."
I note another hero.  Not the next hero, which might be the language I would expect in the case of a pre-determined list.  From this, I infer that there is no hero yet defined as next.

I recognize that this issue may require clarification from FFG.



#9 Unclechawie

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:36 AM

KristoffStark said:

skullcap said:

 

Where in the rules does it say that if a game ability does not specify los, then it dosen't?  I could not find that.  

Also, the rules do seem to imply that the players need to determine the order of play before starting to take their actions.

 

 

Counting Spaces, top of page 13:

"Counting Spaces
Some abilities require players to count the spaces from a figure to the target of the ability. When counting spaces for attacks and abilities, players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces (see “Terrain” on page 18). The player just needs to verify that his target is in range for the ability to reach the target. If an ability affects figures within a specified number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted. However, when counting spaces for an ability, players cannot count spaces through a door because the spaces are not considered adjacent."

Now, I realize, having read this again, that it's talking about "abilities," and not specficially the actions available from Class Cards.

I also realize that it is speaking of when "an ability affects figures," but I don't see why a search token would be substantially different.

I understand the phrase "If an ability affects figures within a specified number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted," to be generic enough to apply to other actions and targets as well.

 

I have read that there are players who think the rules imply that the decision on turn order must be decided before the first hero activates, but I just don't see that.  I imagine they're referencing the phrase:
"Each round, the hero players decide as a group the order in which they wish to act. This order may be different each round."
This phrasing might be considered to imply that this decision is made a the beginning of each round, but nowhere is this explicitly stated.

For a differing point of view, I point to the following from the Hero Turn Summary:
"After the player flips his Activation card, another hero begins his turn."
I note another hero.  Not the next hero, which might be the language I would expect in the case of a pre-determined list.  From this, I infer that there is no hero yet defined as next.

I recognize that this issue may require clarification from FFG.

Actually, that's not the part that implies turn order being decided up front.  It's the next.  If the players can't decide, they act in seating order starting on the OL's left hand.  If the players got to decide as the round proceeded, this would never be a factor and would never happen unless they happened to have decided for that to happen. 



#10 wootersl

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:39 AM

Unclechawie said:

KristoffStark said:

 

skullcap said:

 

Where in the rules does it say that if a game ability does not specify los, then it dosen't?  I could not find that.  

Also, the rules do seem to imply that the players need to determine the order of play before starting to take their actions.

 

 

Counting Spaces, top of page 13:

"Counting Spaces
Some abilities require players to count the spaces from a figure to the target of the ability. When counting spaces for attacks and abilities, players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces (see “Terrain” on page 18). The player just needs to verify that his target is in range for the ability to reach the target. If an ability affects figures within a specified number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted. However, when counting spaces for an ability, players cannot count spaces through a door because the spaces are not considered adjacent."

Now, I realize, having read this again, that it's talking about "abilities," and not specficially the actions available from Class Cards.

I also realize that it is speaking of when "an ability affects figures," but I don't see why a search token would be substantially different.

I understand the phrase "If an ability affects figures within a specified number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted," to be generic enough to apply to other actions and targets as well.

 

I have read that there are players who think the rules imply that the decision on turn order must be decided before the first hero activates, but I just don't see that.  I imagine they're referencing the phrase:
"Each round, the hero players decide as a group the order in which they wish to act. This order may be different each round."
This phrasing might be considered to imply that this decision is made a the beginning of each round, but nowhere is this explicitly stated.

For a differing point of view, I point to the following from the Hero Turn Summary:
"After the player flips his Activation card, another hero begins his turn."
I note another hero.  Not the next hero, which might be the language I would expect in the case of a pre-determined list.  From this, I infer that there is no hero yet defined as next.

I recognize that this issue may require clarification from FFG.

 

 

Actually, that's not the part that implies turn order being decided up front.  It's the next.  If the players can't decide, they act in seating order starting on the OL's left hand.  If the players got to decide as the round proceeded, this would never be a factor and would never happen unless they happened to have decided for that to happen. 

 

Correct. The order of the Heroes taking their turns during the round must be decided first, before any actions are taken. In a game with 2 heroes, this is not a big deal. But, if there are 3 or 4 Heroes, they must establish turn order (or initiative, for those used to RPGs) and must stick to it.



#11 Ispher

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:49 AM

skullcap said:

KristoffStark said:

 

1. If a game ability does not specify that it needs line of sight, then it doesn't.

2. I've never seen anything that implies that players must define their order of activation before they start.

 

 

 

 

Where in the rules does it say that if a game ability does not specify los, then it dosen't?  I could not find that.  

In the rules of logic, available to all of humanity.



#12 wootersl

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:50 AM

skullcap said:

wootersl said:

 

 

 

 

 

Because the line of sight rules only apply to combat. LOS is not discussed in the section for Skills or special abilities. So, unless the text on said card said "this requires LOS", then line of sight is not required to use it. So, yes, if the search icon is on the other side of a door or wall, but only 3 squares away then he can use his ability. I presume that the creators did not take this into consideration and my spidey sense tell me an errata on LOS or his ability will rear it's ugly head before long.

 

 

 

 

But it is not LOS issue, it is a movement issue.  Presumedly, the greedy ability makes him move faster due to his love of treasure.  being greedy does not suddenly give a person the ability to teleport treasure.  We must presume that he can quickly move to and from a treasure chest due to his greed.  So.. the issue here is that since he would need to physically pick up what he is getting, he would need to move past the monsters to do so.  

The relevant text in the rule book is on page 13 with the heading 'counting spaces'.  It says that for abilities where counting spaces is needed, you ignore LOS, but you are still obstructed by terrain obstacles and doors.  It does not specify the effect of other obstacles (monsters), so it is unclear what the intent of the design team was.  

skullcap said:

wootersl said:

 

 

 

 

 

Because the line of sight rules only apply to combat. LOS is not discussed in the section for Skills or special abilities. So, unless the text on said card said "this requires LOS", then line of sight is not required to use it. So, yes, if the search icon is on the other side of a door or wall, but only 3 squares away then he can use his ability. I presume that the creators did not take this into consideration and my spidey sense tell me an errata on LOS or his ability will rear it's ugly head before long.

 

 

 

 

But it is not LOS issue, it is a movement issue.  Presumedly, the greedy ability makes him move faster due to his love of treasure.  being greedy does not suddenly give a person the ability to teleport treasure.  We must presume that he can quickly move to and from a treasure chest due to his greed.  So.. the issue here is that since he would need to physically pick up what he is getting, he would need to move past the monsters to do so.  

The relevant text in the rule book is on page 13 with the heading 'counting spaces'.  It says that for abilities where counting spaces is needed, you ignore LOS, but you are still obstructed by terrain obstacles and doors.  It does not specify the effect of other obstacles (monsters), so it is unclear what the intent of the design team was.  

 

I assume his skill Greedy works like the Goblins scamper ability that allows them to move through Hero figures. It allows him to go through monsters, just not walls, doors and other obstacles.



#13 KristoffStark

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:58 AM

wootersl said:

Actually, that's not the part that implies turn order being decided up front.  It's the next.  If the players can't decide, they act in seating order starting on the OL's left hand.  If the players got to decide as the round proceeded, this would never be a factor and would never happen unless they happened to have decided for that to happen. 
Sure, it could be a factor.  What if they can't decide who should go first?

 

wootersl said:

Correct. The order of the Heroes taking their turns during the round must be decided first, before any actions are taken. In a game with 2 heroes, this is not a big deal. But, if there are 3 or 4 Heroes, they must establish turn order (or initiative, for those used to RPGs) and must stick to it.

If this is indeed the case, and I admit that it might be, I find it counter-intuitive and vaguely silly, as it evokes the mental image of the heroes stopping for a moment in midst of combat to discuss what order they are going to attack in, rather than the much more cinematic concept of the heroes slipping in to an opening that presents itself.

I also observe that forcing the heroes to guess who should go in what order at the beginning of the round will result in many more OL victories, especially since he is specifically not required to predetermine the order his monsters activate in.



#14 wootersl

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:12 AM

KristoffStark said:

wootersl said:

 

Actually, that's not the part that implies turn order being decided up front.  It's the next.  If the players can't decide, they act in seating order starting on the OL's left hand.  If the players got to decide as the round proceeded, this would never be a factor and would never happen unless they happened to have decided for that to happen. 
 
Sure, it could be a factor.  What if they can't decide who should go first?

 

wootersl said:

 

Correct. The order of the Heroes taking their turns during the round must be decided first, before any actions are taken. In a game with 2 heroes, this is not a big deal. But, if there are 3 or 4 Heroes, they must establish turn order (or initiative, for those used to RPGs) and must stick to it.

 

 

If this is indeed the case, and I admit that it might be, I find it counter-intuitive and vaguely silly, as it evokes the mental image of the heroes stopping for a moment in midst of combat to discuss what order they are going to attack in, rather than the much more cinematic concept of the heroes slipping in to an opening that presents itself.

I also observe that forcing the heroes to guess who should go in what order at the beginning of the round will result in many more OL victories, especially since he is specifically not required to predetermine the order his monsters activate in.

Not really. The only time its really a detrimental to players is if the next Hero was hoping the previous player would accomplish something. It's no different in an RPG with initiative. Just because they have to go in initiative order doesn't mean the Heroes in RPGs are at a disadvantage of the monsters. Quite the contrary. In an RPG some monsters might get to go before the monsters. At least this way ALL Heroes get to move before the monsters.



#15 skullcap

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:47 AM

KristoffStark said:

skullcap said:

 

Where in the rules does it say that if a game ability does not specify los, then it dosen't?  I could not find that.  

Also, the rules do seem to imply that the players need to determine the order of play before starting to take their actions.

 

 

Counting Spaces, top of page 13:

"Counting Spaces
Some abilities require players to count the spaces from a figure to the target of the ability. When counting spaces for attacks and abilities, players ignore any non-obstacle terrain in those spaces (see “Terrain” on page 18). The player just needs to verify that his target is in range for the ability to reach the target. If an ability affects figures within a specified number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted. However, when counting spaces for an ability, players cannot count spaces through a door because the spaces are not considered adjacent."

Now, I realize, having read this again, that it's talking about "abilities," and not specficially the actions available from Class Cards.

I also realize that it is speaking of when "an ability affects figures," but I don't see why a search token would be substantially different.

I understand the phrase "If an ability affects figures within a specified number of spaces, line of sight is not needed unless specifically noted," to be generic enough to apply to other actions and targets as well.

 

I have read that there are players who think the rules imply that the decision on turn order must be decided before the first hero activates, but I just don't see that.  I imagine they're referencing the phrase:
"Each round, the hero players decide as a group the order in which they wish to act. This order may be different each round."
This phrasing might be considered to imply that this decision is made a the beginning of each round, but nowhere is this explicitly stated.

For a differing point of view, I point to the following from the Hero Turn Summary:
"After the player flips his Activation card, another hero begins his turn."
I note another hero.  Not the next hero, which might be the language I would expect in the case of a pre-determined list.  From this, I infer that there is no hero yet defined as next.

I recognize that this issue may require clarification from FFG.

 

Again… this is not a LOS issue, it is a movement issue.  Thematically, using the greedy skill (greedy is technically a skill)  would require Tomble to move to the spoace where the search token is.  If the way is blocked, then I think he should not be able to use the skill.

As far as the part of the quote you posted pertaining to abilities effecting figures is concerned…. it seems the text is referring to situations where the figure is the target of the effect.  In the case of 'greedy', the search token is the target of the effect, and the monsters just happen to be in the way.  As far as I can tell, nothing in the rule book addresses the situation I am inquiring about. 



#16 skullcap

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:51 AM

wootersl said:

I assume his skill Greedy works like the Goblins scamper ability that allows them to move through Hero figures. It allows him to go through monsters, just not walls, doors and other obstacles.

 

 

The way I see it, the existence of the scamper ability is more evidence of the 'greedy' skill not being able to bypass monsters who are blocking the way toward a search token.  If with scamper, the game designers thought to specify that the ability allowed for movement that would normally be blocked, that would seem to imply that if another ability allowed for the same, it would be noted.



#17 skullcap

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:58 AM

Ispher said:

skullcap said:

 

KristoffStark said:

 

1. If a game ability does not specify that it needs line of sight, then it doesn't.

2. I've never seen anything that implies that players must define their order of activation before they start.

 

 

 

 

Where in the rules does it say that if a game ability does not specify los, then it dosen't?  I could not find that.  

 

 

In the rules of logic, available to all of humanity.

 

 

Few things are more obnoxious on a rules debate thread than when a person treats their opinion as if it were irrefutable fact.  There are many definitions of game concepts that are not clearly delineated on an individual card.  In Dominion, money cards do not have text on them that says that they need to be put in the discard pile when spent, but it is true that they do.  



#18 wootersl

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 11:58 AM

Well, Greedy has nothing to do with movement. It states "Search a token within 3 squares of you." Which means you are doing the "Search" action, which allows him to reveal a search token that is within 3 squares of him, instead of having to be adjacent. Not sure where you get that movement is involved.



#19 skullcap

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:04 PM

wootersl said:

 

Well, Greedy has nothing to do with movement. It states "Search a token within 3 squares of you." Which means you are doing the "Search" action, which allows him to reveal a search token that is within 3 squares of him, instead of having to be adjacent. Not sure where you get that movement is involved.

 

 

 

 

It is an assumption based on thematic elements.  How does being greedy allow you to search a search token three spaces away?  Presumedly it is by running over to it especially quickly driven by ones immense prioritization of treasure.  If he could teleport treasure from a distance, they should have called it 'the amulet or remote treasure transportation' or some such thing.  I think it makes the game more fun if the abilities make sense both on a thematic level, and a game mechanics level.  I highly doubt that the designers of the game intended for the fact that Tomble is greedy to give him teleportation abilities as a low level skill.  



#20 wootersl

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 12:09 PM

skullcap said:

wootersl said:

 

Well, Greedy has nothing to do with movement. It states "Search a token within 3 squares of you." Which means you are doing the "Search" action, which allows him to reveal a search token that is within 3 squares of him, instead of having to be adjacent. Not sure where you get that movement is involved.

 

 

 

 

It is an assumption based on thematic elements.  How does being greedy allow you to search a search token three spaces away?  Presumedly it is by running over to it especially quickly driven by ones immense prioritization of treasure.  If he could teleport treasure from a distance, they should have called it 'the amulet or remote treasure transportation' or some such thing.  I think it makes the game more fun if the abilities make mense both on a thematic level, and a game mechanics level.  I highly doubt that the designers of the game intended for the fact that Tomble is greedy to give him teleportation abilities as a low level skill.  

 

Well, that's where it gets to who is playing. If you and your group believes that it has to thematically fit, then you judge those rules accordingly. However, there are those that believe that you play just as the rules state. If you want to get thematic, then maybe he is sooo greedy that he runs and dodges around and through anything in his way to get the treasure and return to his starting point, obstacles be damned. Again, as per currently ruling, there is no movement involved and no need for LOS. But, that is your call as a group to agree on that.






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