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Guardian Pillar + The Silver Key


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#1 Glendora

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 03:32 AM

 Hi, 

I need some help with Guardian Pillar

I don't understand whether it ibecomes an exhausted character who, as an exception, would be able to commit to a story as if it was a ready character, or if it exhausts at the same time it commits to a story

If the first statement is correct, then I would be able to commit it to a story with a Silver Key attached to it (so I could ready GP and then use it again on my opponent's turn…)

 

 



#2 AUCodeMonkey

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 07:21 AM

You can exhaust Guardian Pillar to commit it to a story to which The Silver Key is attached.

To pay the cost of the Guardian Pillar Action, you exhaust GP. It is then considered committed to the story of your choice (assuming that story may have characters committed). The Silver Key changes the way characters are committed to stories. Typically they are exhausted as an action (lowercase bolded for emphasis to differentiate from an Action), but The Silver Key makes them ready in order to commit.



#3 Glendora

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 07:54 AM

 Thank you, I think I understood the explanation

Another question relatet to GP:

Let's supose I am the active player and I commit a few characters to stories. Then my opponent commits with his characters. Now I can play actions, so would it be possible to exhaust GP to commit to a story at that moment?? (it would be like having an extra chance to commit to stories..)

 

A few days ago in a tournament we had a similar doubt: the active player committed 1 character. The opponent played the Black Dog as a response, but did not commit any other character. The active player then used the response of his own Black Dog, as his opponent had now 1 character commited. Was it legit?? Or it is only possible to do it in your "commitment turn"?

 

Thank you in advance!



#4 TheProfessor

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:34 AM

 You can only commit characters to stories in your commit phase.  There are some cards that "cheat" the system - Actions, which means they can be performed during any Action Window, that end up with a committed character, avoiding the need to commit.



#5 .Zephyr.

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:21 AM

GP is explained in the FAQ -  he can commit only during normal commit slot.

GP vs silver key I'd ask Damon, it seems like a really weird interaction. You cant commit ready characters, but GP is not really a character yet when you use his ability… then forced response should be triggered as GP became a character. Or not because he was half a character when he was being committed. It seems like an unforeseen interaction I would ask designer on this. (dont forget to post response here or on cardgameDB pillar entry)

Black dog enters as a response to opponents commit. Its quite tricky as commit slots don't have their response slots on the timing chart, as not much would use those; but i guess it should be something like response after story resolution. Black dog is committed outside of commit slot always, it "responds" to what happened during opponents commit slot or some action that commits character (like Nebulous Ooze). As responses are taken one by one by opposing players i think you can respond to black dog by playing your own black dog. Still its kinda weird.



#6 Glendora

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 08:29 PM

Everyone understands the FAQ this way? I did not, but I believe you, I've been playing for only  half a year and my English is not so good

How could I contact Damon? I would be pleased to clarify my doubts and share the response with you all



#7 TheProfessor

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 01:51 AM

Glendora said:

How could I contact Damon? I would be pleased to clarify my doubts and share the response with you all

At the VERY bottom of this page, in small letters, is a link called "Rules Questions"  (it is between "User Support" and "Help").  Click on that and it will take to you an email interface to submit your question.



#8 .Zephyr.

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:06 AM

 Believing my rulings is dangerous, lately it seems like doing the opposite would yield better results…

But FAQ says "This is during the normal timing window when characters are committed to stories." so i dont see much i could have misinterpreted here.

On Black dog i might be wrong, but i just tried to read the card carefully and that's what i came up with.

Edit: I read again, no Black Dog responding to black dog - black dog enters play (already) commited, he is not being commited so response condition on other black dog did not happen.



#9 Penfold

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 06:54 AM

.Zephyr. said:

 Believing my rulings is dangerous, lately it seems like doing the opposite would yield better results…

But FAQ says "This is during the normal timing window when characters are committed to stories." so i dont see much i could have misinterpreted here.

On Black dog i might be wrong, but i just tried to read the card carefully and that's what i came up with.

Edit: I read again, no Black Dog responding to black dog - black dog enters play (already) commited, he is not being commited so response condition on other black dog did not happen.

Both of these are correct. You do not "commit" the Black Dog, you put it into play committed to a story per its response, it completely bypasses the committing process. Because of that you could not respond with another Black Dog to your opponent's Black Dog.



#10 Glendora

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 11:07 PM

 Thank you!
I'll let you know what Damon thinks about this issue



#11 Glendora

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 04:38 AM

This is Damon's answer:

 

Guardian Pillar does not become an exhausted character. The location support card exhausts to allow Guardian Pillar to commit to a story as a character.

The Silver Key prevents readied characters from committing to a story.

While Guardian Pillar has not been exhausted it is not a character and therefore does not fall under The Silver Key's passive effect at all. It is only by exhausting it does it count as a character.



In short, no, you may not commit Guardian Pillar as an action.

As a passive its ability lets you exhaust it to commit to a story as a character. The only time you can commit characters to a story is during the commit step of the framework action (as of right now). As a passive its effect alters the rule about what can be committed. If it had a trigger, like Action or Response, or even Disrupt you could do it at any point that an action of that type could be triggered.

Committing a character is a framework action, that is to say, it is something the game creates a step for and has specific rules governing. The only way for a player to commit a character is through these framework actions. Now a card can become committed to a story through a card effect, but that is not the same thing. For example, playing a card means paying its cost and placing it on the field from your hand, putting a card into play means using a card effect to put the card into play from any out of play area. The end result,, a new character being in play, is the same, but how it is achieved is different.

The same is true for committing a character and a character being committed. The Black Dog is put into play committed, it does not go through the commitment process which is what its response effect triggers off. A Black Dog can never respond to a Black Dog.

Now if there were ever a card that said "Action: Pay 1 to put this character into play. Then, exhaust and commit it to a story of your choice." The wording on that card would specifically create an additional commitment process where a Black Dog would be able to trigger its effect.

Does that make sense?


 

So, Zephyr was right all the time:

GP has to be committed during its controller commitment turn, and the Black Dog cannot respond to a Black Dog as it skips the commitment process

 

Thanks for your answers!



#12 .Zephyr.

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 09:52 AM

Seams i'm not right about GP vs SK.

Does that mean you can commit GP with silver key in play?
And he gets readied?
That's how understand this answer.

Black dog is confirmed.



#13 jhaelen

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 08:24 PM

.Zephyr. said:

Does that mean you can commit GP with silver key in play?
Yes you can - just not to the story with the Silver Key attached.

How about making a simple plausibility check:

If you were correct and the Guardian Pillar could commit to a story with the Silver Key attached then it would necessarily mean it could not attach to any other story. Your interpretation simply doesn't make sense. Damon explicitly stated in his answer that the Passive effect of the Silver Key doesn't affect the Guardian Pillar in any way. So why are you still confused?



#14 Glendora

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 09:22 PM

 I thoutgh you would understand the answer like this, so I did not write anything else

 

but at first I did not understand the GP and SK part, so I ask Damon for a Yes / No answer to this question: Can I commit Guardian Pillar to a story with the Silver Key attached??

His answer:

Yes. Because when Guardian Pillar is ready it is not a character The Silver Key's passive effect cannot prevent it from being used. It only counts as a character if you have exhausted it to commit it.

 

And I suppose it readies, he would have said it otherwise.. ?¿?

what do you think?



#15 .Zephyr.

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 10:10 PM

 Just wanted a confirmation. Post above proofs it was not clear, and when explaining thats the important part.



#16 Glendora

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 04:42 AM

 About if GP would ready:

Yes it readies. It was committed to a story as a character, in this particular case that means any effect that would trigger on or because of a character being committed would also be able to effect Guardian Pillar. To go one step further, as long as it is committed it is considered to be both a character and a support card.

Everything clear now =)



#17 jhaelen

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Posted 03 August 2012 - 10:36 PM

Well, I guess it deserves me being wrong about this, since the 'real' plausibility check I applied was : "Could Zephyr be actually be right about a rule?"

I've never seen the 'Silver Key' in play, and I guess that's a good thing.

 

So, the Guardian Pillar basically circumvents any kind of restrictions that might apply to character commitment because it's not a character when you're doing the checking?

Would it e.g. allow me to commit the Guardian Pillar to a second story after 'A Single Path' has been played?

 

Does 'Guardian Pillar' actually count as a 'character with printed cost X', after committing?

We've recently learned it doesn't have any printed skill or icons, but how about its cost?

 

I'm starting to understand why 'Guardian Pillar' is on the restricted list…

Edit: … and we have a new FAQ! Yay!



#18 .Zephyr.

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Posted 04 August 2012 - 07:36 AM

Cost stays, it cant bypass all restriction… Im often wrong but you seem to say random stuff now… The only thing GP is not is "ready character" and that's what Silver key blocks. It needed confirmation that GP commits as exhausted character, not as a ready character that has been exhausted to commit.






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