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Question - Guards in "Death On The Wing"


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#1 eeeealmo

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 06:23 PM

Having played the "First Blood" and "Death On the Wing", it's pretty clear the game is great. My group did run into an issue that we weren't sure how to handle. 

In "Death On The Wing" (Encounter 2), the special rules indicate that "Each guard on the same tile as either a hero or a monster activates at the end of the last hero turn each round."  For my open group, I picked Goblin Archers (3 hero game -  3 minions, 1 master). 

What was to stop me from simply moving my goblin archers into line-of-sight and picking them off at range?  Technically, they could not activate per the special rules.  We ended up deciding that they could not be attacked until they were activated first.  How are other people handling this? 

Thanks!



#2 Rico

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:01 PM

It appears that the Special Rules are describing how the guard is to react. In other words, the guards are keeping an eye on the surrounding area and, as a guard is paid to do, will defend/attack within his assigned area. If either a hero or a monster is spotted then the guards do their job (ie: they are activated at the end of the hero turn). If you shoot them, again, the guards do their job.  They are not cursed gargoyles triggered by some magical motion detector. They are people. If you shoot them from range they will come for you and should be in play once they are aware that the towers are being attacked.



#3 eeeealmo

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 08:37 AM

Rico said:

It appears that the Special Rules are describing how the guard is to react. In other words, the guards are keeping an eye on the surrounding area and, as a guard is paid to do, will defend/attack within his assigned area. If either a hero or a monster is spotted then the guards do their job (ie: they are activated at the end of the hero turn). If you shoot them, again, the guards do their job.  They are not cursed gargoyles triggered by some magical motion detector. They are people. If you shoot them from range they will come for you and should be in play once they are aware that the towers are being attacked.

 

I totally agree with everything you said, yet the rules clearly state that they do not activate until a monster or hero are on the same tile.



#4 KristoffStark

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:14 AM

eeeealmo said:

Rico said:

 

It appears that the Special Rules are describing how the guard is to react. In other words, the guards are keeping an eye on the surrounding area and, as a guard is paid to do, will defend/attack within his assigned area. If either a hero or a monster is spotted then the guards do their job (ie: they are activated at the end of the hero turn). If you shoot them, again, the guards do their job.  They are not cursed gargoyles triggered by some magical motion detector. They are people. If you shoot them from range they will come for you and should be in play once they are aware that the towers are being attacked.

 

 

 

I totally agree with everything you said, yet the rules clearly state that they do not activate until a monster or hero are on the same tile.

I'm not at home, so I don't have my Quest book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure I remember it also saying that they activate at the end of a turn in which they are attacked.



#5 eeeealmo

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 05:38 PM

KristoffStark said:

 

I'm not at home, so I don't have my Quest book in front of me, but I'm pretty sure I remember it also saying that they activate at the end of a turn in which they are attacked.

 

looking now and i don't see anything about being attacked :(



#6 Karui_Kage

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 07:02 PM

 We just played this, and yes, per the rules, the Guards only activate if a hero or monster is on the same tile as they are. So sniping a Guard from outside their tile without them activating, while silly, is completely allowed by the rules.



#7 Steve-O

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:46 PM

Karui_Kage said:

 

 We just played this, and yes, per the rules, the Guards only activate if a hero or monster is on the same tile as they are. So sniping a Guard from outside their tile without them activating, while silly, is completely allowed by the rules.

 

 

Perhaps the guards are unwilling to abandon their post to chase a few goblins into the distance.  Not having complete knowledge of how many monsters are out there, the goblins could easily be trying to bait them away from their posts so some other beasty can sneak in while they're gone.  That would be my fluffy rationalization for why they don't activate from ranged attacks made from other tiles.

In a perfect simulation of reality, the guards would probably at least try to find nearby cover from the incoming arrows, but no board game can perfectly simulate reality, particularly not one which has focused on streamlining rules. =P



#8 any2cards

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 04:16 AM

I have not played this quest yet, but given the Olympics are going on in London, this whole scenario makes me think of the Queen's Guard, and how they can not be baited into smiling, moving, reacting, etc.  I would imagine, however, that if you were physically standing on their "tile" and give them a swift kick in the nuts, they may react …

LOL



#9 Rico

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:50 PM

I applaude the level of loyalty and commitment these guards have to stand and take painful, physical ranged damage without reacting! Surely these pacifist guards were assured by their employer that their tile boundary protected them. Carry on!



#10 wootersl

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 03:35 PM

Well, might I throw this in the ring. You are claiming that the book says "Each guard on the same tile as either a hero or monster activates at the end of the last hero turn each round; they are controlled by the player who takes his turn last." Sounds reasonable. They don't activate until a hero or monster are on the same tile. But, doesn't it also say before that "Treat them as hero figures". So, technically wouldn't the Guards activate themselves? :)



#11 Alienmastermind

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 08:50 PM

 Hey there! 

After reading how the guards work in that adventure -- (I'm performing the role of Overlord in our campaign group for the first time around by virtue of the fact I've played twice before -- heh.) -- Two things stop your scenario from working the way you've described, luckily enough for the players. 

One -- the Terrain. Line of sight doesn't go through walls. The guards begin in the Gatehouse and Cabin. Both have solid walls that do not provide line of sight unless you get into the buildings themselves, so the Goblins you'd be using would have to get onto their tiles, thereby activating the guards when they get close enough to attack. Also, there are no goblins as default in this encounter. There are Elementals, an Open Group (Which I'd put either Barghests or Ettins), and Belthir. At any rate, you have to get onto the guards' tiles to shoot them, unless the heroes touch their tile to activate them. Once an enemy or hero is on their tile, they get to move on the last hero's turn controlled by that hero. 

Now, nothing is stopping two of the guards from being sniped in the way you describe. But two of them are inside the buildings and can't be hit without an enemy entering the tile and activating them. If you choose Goblins as your Open Group, they start on the waterfall. They get the terrain modifiers for crossing water, paying 2 movement for crossing the little pond at the bottom of the falls, meaning only two of them would be in shooting range during the Overlord's turn.

Given that, you still have to successfully roll range and enough damage to kill the guard, with one attack. The odds are against you continuing the assault and winning the scenario that way because …

Two -- The Thief. His Heroic Feat is being able to end his turn and essentially teleport four spaces away from his last space. With a double move -- 8 spaces, he can use his feat to appear in the Cabin, activating both guards in that building, if he starts in the upper right entrance space. The guards get a blue and red die for attack, which means they do Act I Ettin level damage and have Ettin level (or a little more) Health. They're also Heroes. Which means the Thief gets their defense die as well as their own when he stands adjacent to them.

So, yeah, goblins would be a nasty choice -- definitely as harassers, but you've got Jain Fairwood whose Feat is to do a double move AND an attack, with ranged. So, she can run 10 squares then shoot one of the tan goblins, reducing the harassers.

Unless they lost the first encounter, the Heroes can hustle to the guard towers to activate them while ignoring Belthir until they've alerted the guards.

Or they can sacrifice two of the guards to (hopefully) whack Belthir in a turn or three with a blitz assault, but I don't know if that's feasible to keep the guards alive as well. 

Just saying -- only two of them can be caught unawares with range. :) 

 

Dan 
 

 



#12 KristoffStark

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:22 AM

Alienmastermind said:

Two -- The Thief. His Heroic Feat is being able to end his turn and essentially teleport four spaces away from his last space.

Just a nit-picky thing here.  Thief does not have a Heroic Feat.  Thief is a class, one of the classes available to the Scout Archetype, and available to any character of that type.

The Feat you are referring to is possessed by a character who's name, I think, is Tomble.



#13 jjcole

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:28 AM

KristoffStark said:

Alienmastermind said:

 

Two -- The Thief. His Heroic Feat is being able to end his turn and essentially teleport four spaces away from his last space.

 

 

Just a nit-picky thing here.  Thief does not have a Heroic Feat.  Thief is a class, one of the classes available to the Scout Archetype, and available to any character of that type.

The Feat you are referring to is possessed by a character who's name, I think, is Tomble.

Agreed, most of us know what is meant but for those who don't that could be very confusing.



#14 Alienmastermind

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 08:05 AM

 Yep. Sorry about that, Tomble is correct usage here. I'm just really enthusiastic about the game and used shorthand for the character. :)

 

Dan 



#15 Funkychick

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 05:26 PM

 Another question here, our OL only allowed the guards to be active while either a hero or monster was on the same tile. If they moved off he said those guards could no longer act at the end of our turn, as they weren't activated by hero/monster presence. Thoughts?



#16 wootersl

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 01:21 AM

Once they are activated, they do not unactivate. But, I am sure that there would be people yelling "well, it doesn't explicitly say that". So I would put your question on the Sticky so it can be answered in the FAQ



#17 KristoffStark

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 03:39 AM

wootersl said:

Once they are activated, they do not unactivate. But, I am sure that there would be people yelling "well, it doesn't explicitly say that". So I would put your question on the Sticky so it can be answered in the FAQ

I think you're misunderstanding the definition of "activate."  I don't think it's an on/off state that determines whether or not something can act.

Activate seems to me to be a term that means a figure (or token) receives actions.  For example, familiars:

"A hero player may activate each familiar his hero controls once during his hero turn"

And monsters:

"The overlord activates each of his monster groups, one at at time"

Even the little card that heroes have that they flip over when they start or end their turn is called an Activation Card.

The same goes for the Militiamen in Encounter 2 of Castle Daerion:

"Militiamen activate at the end of the last hero turn each round"

To the duration of an "activation" seems to be that figure/token's turn.  When that turn comes around again, they are "activated" again.  It seems not to be a persistent state.



#18 eeeealmo

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 03:50 AM

KristoffStark said:

 

I think you're misunderstanding the definition of "activate."  I don't think it's an on/off state that determines whether or not something can act.

Activate seems to me to be a term that means a figure (or token) receives actions.  For example, familiars:

"A hero player may activate each familiar his hero controls once during his hero turn"

And monsters:

"The overlord activates each of his monster groups, one at at time"

Even the little card that heroes have that they flip over when they start or end their turn is called an Activation Card.

The same goes for the Militiamen in Encounter 2 of Castle Daerion:

"Militiamen activate at the end of the last hero turn each round"

To the duration of an "activation" seems to be that figure/token's turn.  When that turn comes around again, they are "activated" again.  It seems not to be a persistent state.

 

While I completely agree with your interpretation of the rules, that would make the Guard tokens even more useless than my initial post implied lol.



#19 KristoffStark

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Posted 02 August 2012 - 04:25 AM

eeeealmo said:

 

 

While I completely agree with your interpretation of the rules, that would make the Guard tokens even more useless than my initial post implied lol.

They're not there to be useful, they're there for the Overlord to try to kill, and provide some resistance to this.

So yes, a monster group with range (I chose Flesh Moulders) can pick off most of the guards without them activating.

For the Guards in the Cabin, only the northern most guard can be hit without stepping on the cabin tile, and he would be at a range of 4 (note that the tile begins two spaces before the floor changes to hardwood), which is by no means a guaranteed hit.

The Gatehouse is a bit more vulnerable.  The more southern guard is at a range of 2, while (I think, based on the map) a monster standing just outside of the Gatehouse tile, on the southern of the two squares, can hit the northern guard at a range of 3.

However, in the two hero game I played, this did not stop them from winning, and Belthir was quickly caught and defeated.

Is it a little silly?  Yes.

Should they activate if they're damaged?  I think so.

Will this be in the FAQ?  Maybe.



#20 wofwof

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:20 AM

Hey All,

So I've one for You… Does Belthir activates Guards? Why Am I asking? Because Belthir is not MONSTER from a definition. He is adherent. And the rules say only about Heros and Monsters. 






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