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An Army of one Order and Reaction markers


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#1 tapierscheisse

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 12:51 AM

Hi,

I think this one is tricky, but I know we have got some guys here who know their rules by heart.

Question is: does a Hero and the unit he might join in the process get a reaction marker for receiving the" an army of one" order?

Here are the rules I found to this one:

p90, An Army of One: "…The Hero immediately takes a Move action. If the Hero was with a unit, he leaves it. All Suppression and Reaction markers stay with that unit. That unit does not count as being issued an Order. At the end of his Move action, the Hero may choose to take charge of another unit that he could normally join.
The new unit must have at least one miniature within 6” of the Hero. If the unit is retreating, it immediately stops retreating. The Hero becomes the unit’s new Unit Leader. The joined unit may not be issued an Order during this Command Phase."

Generally, every orders explicitly states wether or not you get a reaction for it. Every single one, but this. One might argue it's a kind of a "Take action" Order and thus you might gain one.

BUT, imagine this: our heroe starts in a unit and is issued the order. Well, he can't be issued a "Take action" Order, because a "Take action" Order can only be issued to UNITS, not individual models inside a unit. So it cannot really be a "Take action" Order.

Also, if the Order is directed at the original Unit, which contained the hero, that Unit would receive the reaction marker. And as stated in the Order, all markers remain by the unit.

So it would seem very unfair to give an individual heroe who was issued this order a reaction marker, if he wouldn't have one if he started inside a unit.

Additionally, what happes to this marker, as he joins the new unit? There are no rules known to me for that case, so we had to improvise even more. On the other hand, the joined unit can not be issued an additional order.

And what about the origianl unit? Can it still be issued another order? Very confusing.

To me it seems, there is no reaction marker awarded for the order.

As far as I see it, the "An Army of One" Order is kind of a "Blitzkrieg" Order for Allied heroes. But I am very unsure, as it would leave open a alot of shenanigans for allied forces.

Should the hero get a reation marker for that order and if so, how should the unit be treated, if he joins afterwards?

What do you think?



#2 DoomOnYou72

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 03:58 AM

I think your confusion comes form misunderstanding the hero rules. Individual Heroes can be issued orders and for all intents and purposes are units.

PG 59 "Heroes function as units of a single miniature when they are operating independently. Just like normal units, when they are activated they get two actions. They can react to enemy actions in the Unit phase, and receive Orders in the Command phase. Solo Heroes are treated as their own Unit Leader in situations that call for one."

An Army of One order is not a take action order. As such it has its own special rules:

A. Must be issued to heroes not units. The hero may be anywhere on the table.

B. The unit the hero was with does not count as receiving an order (therefore no reaction marker even if the hero is a solo unit). This means that yes the original unit may receive an order if normally allowed.

C.The joined unit may not receive an order this command phase.

This is all described in greater detail on PG 90 in the orders bullet box. Hope that helps.

 

 



#3 tapierscheisse

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 05:06 AM

I am very aware of the fact, that heroes can be issued orders, if they are on their own. I was referring to a scenario, where our hero is part of the unit. Than he is not a unit by himself, but an individual model in the unit.

The reference to the "Take Action" order is due to the fact, that many special orders refer to the "Take Action" order to tell us, that you either get or get not a reaction marker, thus my reference. It was just to help you guys grasping the whole problem.

But thanks for the answer anyway. I might have been a little unprecise. English is not my motherlanguage.

However, I would love if you could wrap your mind on the main problem: Does the hero or the unit he joins get a reaction marker? I think this is not explicit in the rules. He might, he might not.

I think he doesn't, but I play Allies and thus am a little prejudiced.



#4 DoomOnYou72

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 06:20 AM

No the hero or the unit he joins does not get a reaction marker. However the newly joined unit may not receive an order in the command phase.



#5 Shadow4ce

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 06:22 AM

 Yes, the hero gains a Reaction Marker, which will stay with him even if he joins a new unit as he would become that unit's leader. Here is the rule in its entirety minus the first sentence of fluff…

"Once per Command phase, a Command Section of an Elite platoon may issue the “An Army Of One” order to a Hero miniature anywhere on the table. 

The Hero immediately takes a Move action. If the Hero was with a unit, he leaves it. All Suppression and Reaction markers stay with that unit. That unit does not count as being issued an Order.

At the end of his Move action, the Hero may choose to take charge of another unit that he could normally join. The new unit must have at least one miniature within 6” of the Hero. If the unit is retreating, it immediately stops retreating. The Hero becomes the unit's new Unit Leader. The joined unit may not be issued an Order during this Command Phase."

From the order's rule text we know and/or can garner the following…

  • The Hero may be issued the order anywhere on the table.
  • If said hero is part if a unit, only the Hero is given the order - It specifically states the original unit the hero was with, "does not count as being issued an order."
  • The Hero then takes a Move Action (Which is why the hero a gains a Reaction Marker - its a Move Action issued as an order in the Command Phase).
  • The Hero may join another unit which the Hero could normally join if within 6" of a miniature in said unit. 
  • The joined unit may not be issued an order in this Command Phase (it's new leader has a Reaction Marker from the Move Action). 

The above is what we know, Rules as Written, and how they must interact. What we can infer from the last sentence of the rule, if being precise, is one cannot join a hero to a unit you already issued an order to this command phase. 

Hope I helped clear it up for you. Very good question. 



#6 tapierscheisse

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:27 AM

Shadow4ce, normally you are right, so I should not argue :-)

 

I'll do so anyway. I agree with you 80%. Just one little thing bothers me:

"The Hero then takes a Move Action (Which is why the hero a gains a Reaction Marker - its a Move Action issued as an order in the Command Phase)."

Please quote the corresponding rule, because it is not known to me. I explicitly named the "Take Action" order, which I would normally take as a reference and I also detailed the problems this would arise in the context.

I feel that you might be right, but there is a lot of totally unexplored (Rule) territory resulting from that ruling.

Like your last point

"The joined unit may not be issued an order in this Command Phase (it's new leader has a Reaction Marker from the Move Action). "

How do you merge markers? You make a good assumption, but as the order - An Army of One - explicitly states what to do with the markes on the original unit it lacks to tell us anything about the new reaction marker and how it is handled by the newly joined unit. Did they forget, or was there no need to tell, because there is no reaction marker involved?

Your guess is a s good as anyones.

 

 



#7 tapierscheisse

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 07:43 AM

oh, and I almost forgot:

"..if being precise, is one cannot join a hero to a unit you already issued an order to this command phase. "

There is absolutely nothing in the rules which might support this. At least of what I know.

The newly joined unit can not get another order, because you can only receive an order once per Command Phase. Should the unit get another Order, the heroe inside it would have gotten two orders in this command phase, which is illegal. If rest of the unit got an order before the joining, every model in the unit had had an order, which is totally OK with the rules.

Although… the rule mixes unit rules with individual model rules, which is not consistent with the rest of the rulebook and thus leads to my problem with the Order.

 



#8 Shadow4ce

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:36 AM

I'll admit I'm inferring a bit, which is why I stated, "know/garner" in reference to the list I made. Here is how I, in my 35th year of experience playiing miniature wargames, got there: (Warning Caveat - I'll skip around a bit to get there, but bear with me, all of it is relevant in the end, and should be easy to follow)…

  1. Page 59 tells us Heroes are Units of One when not joined to a unit and they lead units they join.
  2. Page 33 states a Move Action is one of the two basic Actions a unit may take in the Unit Phase, so we know a Move Action is an Action (regardless of phase).
  3. Page 33 also says, "Some units have additional special actions they may take instead of the standard Move and Attack actions." Which leads us to…
  4. Page 30, Take Action Rule reads:  "The ordered unit executes a single action. This does not count as activating the unit (so the unit does not remove Suppression markers or retreat). It may always take one action, regardless of the number of Suppression or Reaction markers on the unit. When a unit is given a Take Action Order, it gains a Reaction marker at the end of its action, if it did not already have one. As a result, it will not be able to react during the Unit phase, and it will take one less action as well (see “Reactions” on page 34)."
  5. Page 92, Smoke Screen Order, Last Sentence reads, "This Order is not a “Take Action” Order and does not add a Reaction marker to the Command Section."

How all those rules interact is very important, and especially the text in the Take Action rule which has a couple of key words to focus on…

First of all, I think I've proven the rules consider a hero a unit, even if alone, and a Move Action is an Action (I think everyone should be with me on those, especially seeing as how, "Move Action" has, "Action" as part if it's tile, lol). Finally, to set up the Command Phase Order to, "Take Action" it is important to realize there are special actions some units may take instead of the standard Move and Attack actions.

Okay so far?  Great!  Now the important parts of the actual Take Action rule…

  • "The ordered unit executes a single action." - In this case, its a Special Order Action entitled, "An Army of One" (which also just happens to include a Move Action, which would by itself satisfy it as a, "Take Action" special order).
  • "When a unit is given a Take Action Order, it gains a Reaction marker at the end of its action, if it did not already have one."

Notice the bold/italicized portion of that sentence. The hero won't gain a Reaction Marker until the Action is done, which means after the hero joins the new unit and becomes its leader. That's how I got there.

Now, obviously the whole thing breaks down if someone disagrees it is a, "Take Action" order, but I think the Special Order Rule's text, "The Hero immediately takes a Move Action." qualifies it, and is, IMHO, why they didn't feel the need to specify the hero then gains a Reaction Marker. And finally, if it were not a, "Take Action" order, I feel they would have specified it wasn't, just as they did with the, "Smoke Screen" Special Order quoted in bullet point 5 above. 



#9 Shadow4ce

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 08:53 AM

tapierscheisse said:

oh, and I almost forgot:

"..if being precise, is one cannot join a hero to a unit you already issued an order to this command phase. "

There is absolutely nothing in the rules which might support this. At least of what I know.

The newly joined unit can not get another order, because you can only receive an order once per Command Phase. Should the unit get another Order, the heroe inside it would have gotten two orders in this command phase, which is illegal. If rest of the unit got an order before the joining, every model in the unit had had an order, which is totally OK with the rules.

Although… the rule mixes unit rules with individual model rules, which is not consistent with the rest of the rulebook and thus leads to my problem with the Order.

 

You are most certainly correct. At first, I was reading - "The joined unit may not be issued an Order during this Command Phase." - as though the words, "joined" and "unit" were reversed; which would have changed the entire meaning of the sentence. 



#10 tapierscheisse

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:51 AM

Wow, at first let me thank you for your very detailed answer. Great work, I appreciate this.


I especially liked the part on when a reaction marker is gained when using a “Take Action” Order. Missed that.


You are correct with a single exception:
Special actions are not special orders and thus your “Take Action” reference is flawed. You yourself mentioned that this might get a problem.


Special Actions are things like reload ore disembark. Special Orders as detailed on p. 30: “Two basic Orders are available—”Take Action” and “Regroup,” but some units will make additional special Orders available“


So a special Order is not a special action. Else one could use them in the Unit phase as any other action, which you can obviously not. And following that logic (and the RAW) special Orders are not a „Take Action“ Order.


But why did the writers insert the reference to the “Take action” Order in the first place?


I reread every single special Order in the book:


- fire for effect!¬: The unit receives a Reaction Marker. Then roll a single Combat Die,..
o Attack action
o No Reference
o Gains Reaction marker, but at the wrong time


- smoke screen: This Order is not a “Take Action” Order and does not add a Reaction marker to the Command Section.
o Neither Attack nor Move Action
o Reference
o Does not gain reaction marker


- BlitzKrieg!: The unit does not gain a Reaction marker when given a “Blitzkrieg!” Order like it would when given a “Take Action” Order.
o Move action
o Reference
o Does not gain reaction marker


- taKe charge: Every unit within 12” that has not been given an Order already during the Command phase immediately receives a Regroup Order.
o A very high form of the “Regroup” Order
o No reference
o Nothing on reaction markers (Another good rule Question here, will bring that up in the future)


- wiederbelebungsserum failsafe:
o again no refernce to markers


Actually I cannot see a pattern here. I had the same ideas as you did concerning the “Take Action” Orders, but it just does not fit.


Assuming “Regroup” and many special Orders have no reference at all to gaining a reaction marker, you only get a marker if the rules explicitly say so.


But, I am still not sure, so keep on coming, perhaps we might find a solution. I am keen on getting all rules straight, because I am going to organize a tournament and only an airtight ruleset will survive in this surrounding. Hopefully FFG will come with a FAQ soon.
 



#11 Shadow4ce

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 12:23 PM

 For me, it all boils down to proclaiming the Hero takes a Move Action, which is an Action, combined with the lack of text in the order saying the order doesn't provoke a Reaction Marker because it is not a, "Take Action" order, ala Smoke screen, leads me to believe it gets a Reaction Marker.if some orders lack the phrase this is not considered a Take Action order, then I'd infer it is a Take Action order. 

The rest of my detailed explanation was just to specify it gets the marker at the end of the action.

But sure, an FAQ would be a good approach by FFG on this one. Same with Take Charge. I'd say, rule of thumb, any order that doesn't specify you don't get a Reaction Marker does. That's how I'd rule a tournament, and I'd announce it up front so there wasn't any rules-lawyering whining about it mid-tourney. But hey, I could be wrong. 



#12 tapierscheisse

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 09:21 PM

I’ve done some further pondering about the rule:

What happens if said hero walks through some barbed wire before joining a new unit?

P70: “…the unit suffers a S/1 attack once the movement has been resolved”

P90: “…At the end of his Move action, the Hero may choose to take charge of another unit that he could normally join.”

P30: “…When a unit is given a Take Action Order, it gains a Reaction marker at the end of its action”

When are things resolved and in what order. Are they simultaneously? Do you join first and then resolve the rest, as Shadow4ce implied? This would result in a 6 Dice of damage (Infantry 2) to the whole Unit instead of 1 Dice to the hero.

You would of course circumvent the difficult question of how a reaction marker due to the Order “An Army of One” is treated. But is the result satisfactory? Or even realistic?

I think the Order leaves a lot of questions open and I really hope for a clarification in the near future, as it is a real asset to the allied forces.

In the meantime I would rather not give it a reaction marker, as there is no rule in the book, telling us, that orders entail a reaction marker per se. The references to the “Take Action” Order within the special orders might indicate a system behind allocating reaction markers, but I don’t see it and there is no obvious pattern here, even though “Blitzkrieg” might indicate it.

Yet another question arises from the mix of model and unit that comes from this rule:

Is the original unit able to get an order and you split the hero afterwards? Effectively giving him two orders?

Should the Order give you any advantages, either one has to be right. Otherwise it would be close to useless. I could imagine using it every other game, while I use every other special Order as often as I can spare the points. So balance wise I am rather set on

- No reaction marker for the Unit OR
- May be issued to a Hero in a unit which already received an Order



#13 tapierscheisse

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 01:51 AM

I think the whole dilemma comes from over interpreting the rules. If you just stick to the rules, things are quite simple: there is no mentioning of gaining a reaction marker, so you don’t gain one.

The reference in two of the six (33%) orders to the “Take Action” order are a nice addition, but as three out of six (50%) of the rules don’t mention anything about a reaction marker at all, and ther is no general rule for awarding reactin markers, we can safely assume, that this is the norm and reaction markers are therefore not awarded.

By sticking to that simple way of playing the rules as they are presented in the book and not going into how they might or might not be intended, which we will never know, the orders make perfect sense and no problem ever arises.



#14 Shadow4ce

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 04:35 AM

 I respectfully disagree and think you are over analyzing it.

Re: Timing in your examples above, the first two happen at the end of movement, so there is a conflict there. I'd say the resolution order, absent specific rules, is up to the active player. The third example says at the end of its action, so that us obviously last. 

Now, your whole argument of not giving a Reaction Marker on the Army if One order, while well thought out, is made wrong by your own example that I should have considered earlier; namely the BlItzkrieg Order. Both orders involve a Move Action, which is the very definition of Take Action.  Only one of these has additional text telling us to not place a Reaction Marker. An Army of One must therefore cause one to be placed. I've explained it clearly and feel you are just looking for a loophole advantage. 

As far as the other orders go, I think absent text otherwise, any order which involves an action by the unit receiving the order, requires a Reaction Marker, as it is in keeping with the stated purpose of the rule. (I'll quote the rule later, when I can look it up - I've got to go arrest somebody right now). 



#15 tapierscheisse

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 05:15 AM

Shadow4ce said:

 

 I respectfully disagree and think you are over analyzing it.

 

 

Yes I did, see my last post ;-)

Shadow4ce said:

 

Re: Timing in your examples above, the first two happen at the end of movement, so there is a conflict there. I'd say the resolution order, absent specific rules, is up to the active player. The third example says at the end of its action, so that us obviously last. 

 

 

"End of its Action": please enter the action used: = "End of his Move Action", So they are all equal.

Shadow4ce said:

 

Now, your whole argument of not giving a Reaction Marker on the Army if One order, while well thought out, is made wrong by your own example that I should have considered earlier; namely the BlItzkrieg Order. Both orders involve a Move Action, which is the very definition of Take Action.  Only one of these has additional text telling us to not place a Reaction Marker. An Army of One must therefore cause one to be placed. I've explained it clearly and feel you are just looking for a loophole advantage. 

 

 

I guess when you wrote this, when my last post was not yet online. I'll just repeat that one: 1/3 of the orders refer to the "Take Action" Order, 1/2 does not even mention reaction markers. If you want to see a clear trend, here it is. Reaction is not necessary for Orders. In 50% of the time it isn't even worth mentioning. (50% is not an accident, it is the norm)

Shadow4ce said:

 

As far as the other orders go, I think absent text otherwise, any order which involves an action by the unit receiving the order, requires a Reaction Marker, as it is in keeping with the stated purpose of the rule. (I'll quote the rule later, when I can look it up - I've got to go arrest somebody right now). 

 

 

Happy arresting ;-)

I am sorry for the telegraph style answer, but as you said, and as I said in my last post, I am overanalyzing stuff. If I don't analyze and just follow the rules, I have the best chance of playing the game as intended. I cannot second guess why the authors entered the reference to the "take action" order, and I still think that they might have simply forgotten the reference in the "An Army of One" order, but I will never know unless Andy gives me a call. Both authors have left FFG (I heard that rumour, but I am nnot sure, please correct me), so probably no one will ever know.

I will make it simple for me and the players around me by stop interpreting and trying to find out what the intention behind the rule might have been. I will just play the rules as they are in the book. And the book does not mention a reaction marker, so I will not read one into it.

Unless there is a FAQ of course.



#16 Shadow4ce

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 09:07 AM

 I do believe we are coming at this from the exact same angle (keep it simple), yet somehow ending up on opposite sides of the fence. You're basically assuming Special Orders shouldn't get a Reaction Marker unless specified in the order's text, based on the fact one of the six orders has text which says it does. I'm assuming all Special Orders gain a Reaction Marker unless they have text which states they do not, based on the fact two of the six orders have text which says they don't. Until Errata or FAQ resolves it, it's anybody's guess which way is right. Although, played the way you do, I might have actually tried the BlutKreuz Platoon's Serum Order occasionally. My way, no way. The odds of picking a squad that is going to lose enough guys to make it worth the risk (3-4), without losing the whole squad, is infinitesimally small!

 

Great discussion though. I actually hope you're right. And, I'm starting to lean your way on all but the Army of One, as the Move Action is too much like the Blitzkrieg order to make me think it was an oversight they left out. But fingers crossed. (Not going to hold my breath though, as it could be some time before we get an answer). 

Out of curiosity, do either SSU Platoons reference Reaction Markers?



#17 DoomOnYou72

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 10:54 AM

Yes both SSU platoon orders state that they receive a Reaction Marker. I still lean towards tapierscheisse in that there is no Reaction Marker received too…

I think this one needs a FAQ as personnally I think that both arguments are completely valid.



#18 Shadow4ce

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 05:53 PM

DoomOnYou72 said:

Yes both SSU platoon orders state that they receive a Reaction Marker. I still lean towards tapierscheisse in that there is no Reaction Marker received too…

I think this one needs a FAQ as personnally I think that both arguments are completely valid.

Based on the fact the ones which say they do now outnumber the ones that don't…

I'm leaning that way now as well. Although, I really want clarification on the Army of One, as it's Move Action still feels like the thread that unravels the sweater. 



#19 Maine

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Posted 31 July 2012 - 02:57 PM

As far as Rules As Written, as has been stated certain Orders explicitly state when you get a Reaction Marker, and Army of One is not one of those Orders.

Being similar to another Order that explicitly causes you to gain a Marker does not mean it also gains a marker… to assume such is inference of Rules As Intended.  Gaining a Reaction Marker on that squad is a huge penalty which makes an Order that is already of limited value even less useful.

Aren't the Orders that state they don't gain a Reaction Marker, causing you to do something where you normally would gain one?  Moving would not normally gain one, except when as a result of a Take Action order.



#20 Shadow4ce

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Posted 01 August 2012 - 06:52 AM

Maine said:

As far as Rules As Written, as has been stated certain Orders explicitly state when you get a Reaction Marker, and Army of One is not one of those Orders.

Being similar to another Order that explicitly causes you to gain a Marker does not mean it also gains a marker… to assume such is inference of Rules As Intended.  Gaining a Reaction Marker on that squad is a huge penalty which makes an Order that is already of limited value even less useful.

Aren't the Orders that state they don't gain a Reaction Marker, causing you to do something where you normally would gain one?  Moving would not normally gain one, except when as a result of a Take Action order.

If it said, "The Hero may move 6" as though he had taken a Move Action." I'd be with you 100%. But it starts by saying…

"The Hero immediately takes a Move action."  

Which by very definition, is a Take Action order, IMO. I'm not sticking to it just for argument's sake, as I have no ego about being wrong, and I freely admit it when I am.

Let's look at the two orders which have Reaction Marker rules exceptions:

Blitzkrieg has nearly identical text as An Army of One when dealing with the unit/hero move…

"The ordered unit takes a single Move action" but is followed by this sentence, "The unit does not gain a Reaction marker when given a “Blitzkrieg!” Order like it would when given a “Take Action” Order."

Now, look at how the Smoke Screen Order reads…

"This Order is not a “Take Action” Order and does not add a Reaction marker to the Command Section."

 

Wouldn't An Army of One state something similar to one of these two if it didn't cause a reaction Marker?  It's either a type of Take Action order which would require an exceptionary rule like Blitzkrieg has, or it's not a Take Action Order which would require text saying so even more so than Smoke Screen, as it is less like a Take Action than any other Special Order except Fire For Effect, which actually has text saying the unit the Radioman is in does gain a Reaction Marker. 

Since I very rarely get to play my Allies, (and even more rarely, their Elite Platoon),  I find it's not a hill worth dying on. I stated very concisely how I got there, via rules, but don't care to belabor the point any further, other than to say. I can easily see this as being "intended" to go either way. The best way to have written it would be to either:

A.) State in the Command Phase rules, "All Orders cause a Reaction Marker unless specifically stated otherwise."

Or

B.) Include text in every Special Order stating they do or they don't. 






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