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#1 Esto

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 11:10 PM

This is Atlach-Nacha's ability by which all Mystic cards are discarded without their special effects taking place. I'm sure this has no impact on "King in Yellow" performances. But would a Mystic card eliminate an Environmental card already in play even though the Mystic card does not stay in play?



#2 Esto

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 11:17 PM

I just realized I worded my message in an ambiguous way. What I meant to say is that King in Yellow performances wil not be impeded in any way by "Web Between Worlds" if a Mystic card is drawn during the Overture.



#3 Tibs

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 03:15 AM

They will trigger a King in Yellow.

Atlach's (and Ithaqua's and Tsathoggua's) ability means that when you go to apply the Environment card's text, it is instead discarded without replacing the current Environment. However, it is still a Mystic card, so it still triggers the first Act.

 

Where it gets confusing is with Cthugha, who discards Weather cards entirely, and you draw again. Would this trigger the final act? After some consideration, I said "yes." I can't find the forum post I made on it, but these are the main points:

  1. Without the new Act cards, Cthugha is slightly more likely to draw "Next Act Begins" cards because he skips weather cards entirely. It's like having a smaller deck.
  2. If Weather cards don't trigger Act III for Cthugha, then he has to wait until a Next Act Begins card is drawn, which is extraordinarily rare with more than a couple expansions, as everyone knows. The element of risk is gone then.

 



#4 Esto

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 03:29 AM

Tibs said:

They will trigger a King in Yellow.

Atlach's (and Ithaqua's and Tsathoggua's) ability means that when you go to apply the Environment card's text, it is instead discarded without replacing the current Environment. However, it is still a Mystic card, so it still triggers the first Act.

 

Where it gets confusing is with Cthugha, who discards Weather cards entirely, and you draw again. Would this trigger the final act? After some consideration, I said "yes." I can't find the forum post I made on it, but these are the main points:

  1. Without the new Act cards, Cthugha is slightly more likely to draw "Next Act Begins" cards because he skips weather cards entirely. It's like having a smaller deck.
  2. If Weather cards don't trigger Act III for Cthugha, then he has to wait until a Next Act Begins card is drawn, which is extraordinarily rare with more than a couple expansions, as everyone knows. The element of risk is gone then.

 

I know the Mystic cards trigger a King in Yellow. Even on my 2nd attempt, I phrased my thoughts poorly. I just wasn't sure if it would affect the existing environment card. Thanks for answering that for me. I'm not sure I agree with you on Cthugha though which Julia answered previously in a different way.



#5 jgt7771

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 03:48 AM

(Not to hijack the thread, but…you think you know "the rules" and then someone throws out something that makes you wonder if you ever did.)

Ach, Tibs, I didn't even realize the Misk Acts had a controversy (if it is one).  So now I want to clarify for myself.

This is essentially the Misk Act cards vs. Ithaqua, Tsathoggua, Atlach-Nacha, or Cthugha.  When an Environment Mythos card is DRAWN, the Act cards activate (like Gate Bursts and flying monsters).  The first three Ancient Ones mentioned discard the Environment at the end of the phase, whereas Cthugha discards/redraws at the beginning of the phase, but NONE of them will prevent the Acts from reacting because the DRAWING of the Environment still happened.  I.E. you can't activate Cthugha's text (you can't ignore the whole card) until AFTER the card is assessed (until AFTER you've drawn the card and know what it is).

Is any part of that wrong?


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#6 Tibs

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 07:07 AM

That sounds right, but it still stirs poop with other past problems:

If a Servant of Glaaki comes out, you have to draw a Mythos card and refer to its gate location for placing the Servant. What if this card is a Mystic card? Does it trigger Act I? Does it trigger Ghroth? Why should it, when it wasn't even being drawn for the purposes of being a Mythos card?

Likewise, any Weather cards drawn for Cthugha were drawn with the intent of being used as a Mythos card—they just didn't end up being used. I guess it's interesting to consider that Cthugha says to discard Weather cards and draw again, rather than just removing all Weather cards from the deck beforehand. Maybe this is evidence that they were meant to continue acting as triggers?



#7 Walk

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 04:40 PM

Um…triggers for the Acts?  The Miskatonic Acts were released two years after Cthugha.  I suppose FFG might have already been working on the Miskatonic Acts, but it certainly wouldn't have been finalized, so I don't think we can safely assume that that was the intent.



#8 Tibs

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 02:59 AM

You misunderstand. When you draw a Mythos card in the Mythos phase, you're intending to use it as a Mythos card. If, for Cthugha, it happens to be a weather card, you don't use it at all. I think this is distinct from drawing a Mythos card with the intent to use it to place a Servant of Glaaki. So the former should trigger an Act, and the latter should not.

I don't think the designers considered the new Acts' interaction with Cthugha, so I had to come up with an answer based on practicality.



#9 jgt7771

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 06:17 AM

I see your point, Tibs.  I always meant any conventional Mythos draw, as in a Mythos card meant to be a Mythos card.  I would add that would include any extra card drawn as a result of Zhar's rolled doubles, but not any card drawn just for a Gate Location ("and ignore the rest of the card"), like for a Glaaki Servant or for a couple of failed Rumor conditions.

I suppose that has to rate as a "House Rule", but, like many pre-Grand-FAQ House Rules, we try to base those rulings in some kind of common sense (or player majority).


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#10 Julia

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:44 AM

Esto said:

I'm not sure I agree with you on Cthugha though which Julia answered previously in a different way.

 

Funny thing is that Julia doesn't remember having answered ::laughter::


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#11 Esto

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Posted 27 July 2012 - 10:51 PM

Julia said:

Esto said:

 

I'm not sure I agree with you on Cthugha though which Julia answered previously in a different way.

 

 

 

Funny thing is that Julia doesn't remember having answered ::laughter::

I looked through all of my old messages & I couldn't find what I was seeking. The closest reference I could find was "Cthugha & Deputy's Revolver" & "Shocking Final Act". In the latter (dated Nov 4, 2011), I gave a 2 paragraph summary of my shocking loss to the King in Yellow. I categorically stated that my loss was even more painful because Cthugha could not trigger the Final Act ----- yet no one corrected me or commented on it (probably because few people read it). To the best of my recollection, I made this statement with authority because I had sought out this question earlier on the AH Forum as to whether Cthugha could trigger Act 3. I also seem to remember Julia making a joke that with the sweltering heat any KIY performances would undoubtedly be cancelled. If I am dreaming all of this, then my sincere apologies. It is not my intention to misquote anyone.



#12 Julia

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 12:44 AM

Esto said:

To the best of my recollection, I made this statement with authority because I had sought out this question earlier on the AH Forum as to whether Cthugha could trigger Act 3. I also seem to remember Julia making a joke that with the sweltering heat any KIY performances would undoubtedly be cancelled. If I am dreaming all of this, then my sincere apologies. It is not my intention to misquote anyone.

 

Hi Esto!

First of all, don't worry about quoting or misquoting ::laughter:: sometimes I don't remember I've said something, that's why I was asking ::laughter:: The Cthugha humour is actually Julia or Avi style, so I guess I could have written that! ::laughter::

As for the triggering stuff… I tend to play this way:

- effects triggered by the drawing of a Mythos card trigger always, if the card is drawn for purposes of gate opening and so on, regardless the AO forcing you to discard the card thereafter

- sometimes you're instructed to draw cards from the deck (to place the Servants of Glaaki or other stuff): those cards do not trigger anything.

Not so sure how to word this in legal arkhamese, but in my head is really clear


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#13 Esto

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 01:14 AM

Thanks, Julia. I will play it this way from now on.



#14 Walk

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 02:51 PM

Just to further shake things up (and because I honestly would like to know): what about the Mythos card you draw on account of failing The Key and The Gate?  That opens a gate and does nothing else, but since opening a Gate is a normal function of a Mythos card, I would be inclined to say it still acts as a trigger.  Thoughts?



#15 Tibs

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 06:10 PM

My thought is since it only opens a gate, there is no "mythos text" so there's nothing that counts as "environment."



#16 Julia

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Posted 30 July 2012 - 02:32 AM

Same as above, you draw that card only for purposes of opening a gate, so I'd not consider any triggering effect related


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