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Large Monster Movement


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#1 Acreyan

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:24 AM

After reading the rules for large monsters, this strikes me as a little off. It seems as I read it, that the overlord counts out movement spaces from a given point on the base, and then may place the monster so that any point on the base occupies that square.

Am I reading this correctly? In our games, our OL has played this to his advantage, essentially moving two more squares than they have movement points. He counts from a front square on the base, and then places a rear square on the base in the target square. This seems legitimate with the rule reads.

Thoughts?



#2 Antistone

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:30 AM

The example of large monster movement in the rulebook clearly shows an ettin with 3 speed moving 4 spaces, so this appears to be intentional.



#3 KristoffStark

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:34 AM

Yep, that's how it works.



#4 Acreyan

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:44 AM

Thanks, guys. That seems "broken" so I wanted to make sure I was reading it correctly.



#5 KristoffStark

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 06:47 AM

Acreyan said:

Thanks, guys. That seems "broken" so I wanted to make sure I was reading it correctly.

I find that it keeps the large monsters from being under-powered.  They all have listed move of 3, which is slower than everyone by the dwarf, and they can't suffer fatigue for extra movement.



#6 KristoffStark

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 08:55 AM

Also, something to keep in mind, is that even if a large monster is double moving, their first movement action has to end in a place that they're are capable of standing.



#7 Antistone

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:11 PM

KristoffStark said:

Also, something to keep in mind, is that even if a large monster is double moving, their first movement action has to end in a place that they're are capable of standing.

Well, yes, that seems to be correct.  HOWEVER!  You can interrupt a move action to perform another action - and I don't see any rule that would prevent you from interrupting a move action with another move action.

So if you can't expand in the middle of your double-move, maybe you can move a step or two, interrupt the first move action with a second move action to get past the blockade, then expand afterwards.

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, that allows you to shrink & expand a total of 3 times instead of 2 (expand once for interrupt, once to end inner move action, and once to end the outer move action), thereby also allowing you to cover more total distance…



#8 KristoffStark

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:18 PM

Antistone said:

KristoffStark said:

 

Also, something to keep in mind, is that even if a large monster is double moving, their first movement action has to end in a place that they're are capable of standing.

 

 

Well, yes, that seems to be correct.  HOWEVER!  You can interrupt a move action to perform another action - and I don't see any rule that would prevent you from interrupting a move action with another move action.

So if you can't expand in the middle of your double-move, maybe you can move a step or two, interrupt the first move action with a second move action to get past the blockade, then expand afterwards.

In fact, if I'm not mistaken, that allows you to shrink & expand a total of 3 times instead of 2 (expand once for interrupt, once to end inner move action, and once to end the outer move action), thereby also allowing you to cover more total distance…

I thought it said that when they intterupt, they also have to be able to fit in the space where they are.



#9 Antistone

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:37 PM

KristoffStark said:

I thought it said that when they intterupt, they also have to be able to fit in the space where they are.

Yes, you still need to fit, this trick just change where you need to fit.

Say you have a speed of 4 and want to double-move 8 spaces. If you do two consecutive move actions, you need to expand after the 4th space of movement.

If you declare a move action, move two spaces, then interrupt with a second move action, you have to expand where you are - but then you can move another 4 spaces before you have to expand again. So you'll be expanding on the 2nd space and the 6th space instead of on the 4th space.

So it won't let you move down an 8-space long corridor that's only 1 space wide, but if there's an obstacle right at the 4th space and the rest of the path is clear, it lets you massage your way around it.

At least, as I'm reading the rules.



#10 KristoffStark

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:47 PM

Antistone said:

KristoffStark said:

 

I thought it said that when they intterupt, they also have to be able to fit in the space where they are.

 

 

Yes, you still need to fit, this trick just change where you need to fit.

Say you have a speed of 4 and want to double-move 8 spaces. If you do two consecutive move actions, you need to expand after the 4th space of movement.

If you declare a move action, move two spaces, then interrupt with a second move action, you have to expand where you are - but then you can move another 4 spaces before you have to expand again. So you'll be expanding on the 2nd space and the 6th space instead of on the 4th space.

So it won't let you move down an 8-space long corridor that's only 1 space wide, but if there's an obstacle right at the 4th space and the rest of the path is clear, it lets you massage your way around it.

At least, as I'm reading the rules.

Ah, yes, I misunderstood your point.  I do believe you are correct, though it wouldn't surprise me to see an eratta that forbids interrupting movement with movement.



#11 SpankeyCheeser

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 10:16 PM

I thought that if you declare two move actions, you actually move twice your movement (for large monsters that would be 6 spaces, not 3 + 3).  Or is that just for heroes?



#12 KristoffStark

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 03:23 AM

 Nowhere in the Move rules does it suggest that you combine a double move into some kind of single action at Speedx2, for either Heroes or Monsters.

They are two single, independent move actions.



#13 Antistone

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:26 AM

KristoffStark said:

 Nowhere in the Move rules does it suggest that you combine a double move into some kind of single action at Speedx2, for either Heroes or Monsters.

I personally don't think the intent was that they be combined, but there is a sentence that could plausibly be read as implying that on page 8 (Hero Turn in Detail - Move):

"A hero may also decide to perform two move actions consecutively, in which case the hero receives movement points equal to twice his Speed."

I think this is just an attempt to explain that you are allowed to take two move actions in the same turn and get the full benefit of each, but I am not surprised if some people understood it differently.



#14 Terah

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 03:35 PM

What happens if during your first move action you only have 1 MP left and want to enter water? Can you "combine" another move action or do you lose that MP?



#15 Antistone

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:29 PM

Well, you can interrupt your move action to perform another action.  Including, as far as I can tell, another move action…

You could also suffer a fatigue for an extra movement point.

 

If I had designed the game, a move action would probably just give you X movement points (much as in 1e), and then you could do whatever you wanted with those movement points. But apparently the D2 team decided that they wanted to be able to take away "the rest of your movement action" with the Tripwire trap, so here we are.

Hypothetically, if 2 move actions combined into a single action with double movement points, how would Tripwire interact with it?  And what if you didn't decide until part way through the first move action that you also wanted to use your second action to move?  I think that could end up being even more complicated than interrupting your move action with another move action…



#16 jjcole

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Posted 25 July 2012 - 01:48 AM

I'm not sure if it's Tripwire, but I know one card mentions it stops the current move action but the hero may still use their second action (if not yet used) or spend fatigue to continue moving.

I don't find that it's complicated at all, you just act as if the move they just took used up the last of their movement points and continue as normal.



#17 extraterrestrial

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Posted 28 July 2012 - 10:23 AM

Antistone said:

Say you have a speed of 4 and want to double-move 8 spaces. If you do two consecutive move actions, you need to expand after the 4th space of movement.

If you declare a move action, move two spaces, then interrupt with a second move action, you have to expand where you are - but then you can move another 4 spaces before you have to expand again. So you'll be expanding on the 2nd space and the 6th space instead of on the 4th space.

What stops you of interrupting your second move action with the first and vice versa -  thus gaining you free movement points per movement point (as long as there is no obstacle in your way, that stops you from expanding)



#18 depravity

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Posted 29 July 2012 - 06:08 PM

 My thoughts on moving and attacking are as follows:

A Large Monster (LM) begins its Move Action with Overlord (OL) indicating his/her selected 1x1 "shrink" space. The LM then moves any amount less than its max movement points and OL declares an Attack Action.

The hero may interrupt his movement with another action and then complete his movement after the other action is resolved. p7, "Move"

Declaring this puts interrupts and puts aside the Move Action, retaining its 1x1 shrink space and the action is effectively phased out. The Attack Action continues until it is complete.

At this time, the Attack Action is no longer happening, and the Move Action is then resumed. I think it is important to note that a new Move Action is not starting, it is merely resuming the pre-Attack Action move. Therefore, a new 1x1 shrink space is NOT chosen since it was decided upon during the initial move. As indicated by the text below: I believe the word "movement" is singular and is equivalent or synonymous to "(a) move action"

When determining movement for large monsters, the overlord player chooses one of the spaces that the monster occupies and counts movement from the chosen space as if the figure occupied one space. When the monster ends (or interrupts) its movement, the overlord player places the large monster figure so that one of the spaces its base occupies includes the space where the monster ended its movement. p16, "Large Monsters"

 

If the above is true then for a 2x2 LM:

(a) a LM gains 0 net movement points due to an attack action

(b) an OL may declare a move action, end it, change orientation, declare a second move action with a new 1x1 shrink space and repeat

© Dash is a single move action and not 2 separate move actions so the LM may not change orientation half way through

A more sequential diagram explaining is below:

-> Move Action begins, declared 1x1 shrink space

---> Attack Action begins

<--- Attack Action ends

-> Move Action resumes with 1x1 original 1x1 shrink space

<- Move Action ends






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