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#1 icevvind

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 12:01 PM

Oh men, i got no idea about wargames XD.

 

I play axis, but got no idea about how to use Laser Grenadiers. I thought the trick was using Sustained attack, but even that way i can't get a good use of them.

Today my unit was obliterated by a BBQ squad, that is supposed to be its homonym (as i see the pairings: gunners-battle gren, recon boys-recon gren, bbq-laser)

but the diference is 5/1 laser against soldier 2 vs 22/1 from the BBQ with demolition charges etc…

And furthermore, Nebelwerfer Barrage? Lightning war? Usually my adversaries deploys within cover, and theres just one scenario and just one battle builder option where my army can enter from offtable…

Comparing it with upgrades like Additional Support + Long tom…

Dunno, im feeling a bit dissapointed but thats just because im new to wargames.

Any suggestions?

Thanks in advance

 



#2 Maverickg

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 03:43 PM

 I would also like an answer to this one.  On paper, I cannot see the use for the regular laser grenadiers.  I effectively use the heavy laser grenadiers vs armor.  But on comparing units I would prefer recon grenadiers to the laser.  Am I missing something.  (the laser ability is not that great when it shoots 1/1 IMO)



#3 Major Mishap

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 08:47 PM

 There is no answer to your queries I'm afraid, the units and skills you mentioned are useless in DW and they nerfed the Laser Grenadiers pretty bad in the transition from DT to DW without reducing their points cost.  In DT you can re-roll re-rolls and that makes a big difference to any laser weapon.



#4 Drag0n

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:01 PM

I see only one option - add Sigrid to Laser Grd, but Berser works only once

At first sight Allies have a better unitsoptions then Axis. Damage Resilient looks pity, Laser weapon not as good as in DT. In this time only additional walker is a great option



#5 KevinBakon

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 11:54 PM

 Laser grenadiers are going to start performing better now that armor 4 units will be coming out. 



#6 Major Mishap

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 12:33 AM

KevinBakon said:

 Laser grenadiers are going to start performing better now that armor 4 units will be coming out. 

If, when and maybe tey do come out it will only be against a few rare, select units.  Still not worth taking just in case an A4 unit strolls into 12" range of the lasers - they will probably all be dead before that happens.



#7 Maverickg

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:17 AM

Thanks for the information.  I glad to see my gut was right regarding the laser gren. and I always take the extra panzer.  I had thought the tougher armor of axis seemed a bit underwhelming compared to what the allies offer, thanks for confirming.  I will take this into account when I am building my force.



#8 Drag0n

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 01:36 AM

 Oh, by the way, its possible to add Angela to LG, right? So, they obtain Frenzy and Snipe from her ;)

Think also, that gorillaZ an zombieZ not only funny freaks but have a potential in Axis force



#9 icevvind

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 03:17 AM

Drag0n said:

 Oh, by the way, its possible to add Angela to LG, right? So, they obtain Frenzy and Snipe from her ;)

Yeah, it is possible and they gain Snipe, but its a pity needing to add a hero for the unit to work



#10 Shadow4ce

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 03:58 AM

icevvind said:

Drag0n said:

 

 Oh, by the way, its possible to add Angela to LG, right? So, they obtain Frenzy and Snipe from her ;)

 

 

Yeah, it is possible and they gain Snipe, but its a pity needing to add a hero for the unit to work

The bigger pity is not using Angela to her full potential. She belongs in a Sniper Team. If you're going to attach a hero to the LGs, add Sigrid or Manfred.  Sigrid adds ablative wounds, an extra laser, and Berserk. Manfred gives them an extra Ablative wound, the ability to avoid reactions at the end of a March Move (situational, but great in some circumstances), and a second AT threat for Armor 4+ vehicles. 

As for the LGs themselves, most people use them in the wrong role. With their lack of grenades and continual rerolls, they are no longer a good first assault unit, or static defense unit (unless in city fighting, then they are quite good - 12" range). Their best uses are as reactionary defensive force in a Sturmgrenadiere Platoon. Put them near a target which you know your opponent is going to airdrop a BBQ squad or Paras. Rules dictate they are just outside 12" range from you. If you are responding player (likely if opponent had several air-drop units), and you have Sigrid attached, advance just within 12" on your turn and Frenzy Fire. If you are initiating player, get ready for next turn. If you do not have Sigrid, it's a tougher decision and will depend on available cover and LOS. Now, next turn, odds are you'll get initiative, as your Allies opponent will have more dice to roll as a result of landing their air-drop boys. First, order something with longer range to shoot and suppress whatever just landed. Preferably multiple times, but that'll be situational based upon other threats. Now with your LGs, If you're facing paras, blitzkrieg back and make him come to you. If BBQ, and two or more suppression, stay put. On your turn, Sustain Fire the assaulting units. 

To be honest, LGs went from favorite unit in DT, to least used in DW. But they definitely have a strong role to play in a combined arms army. Their cost makes folks less likely to use them enough times to learn how to get their 21 AP out of them. I've only not got 21 AP out of them once after the first week the game came out (Wiped turn 1 on the luckiest Long Tom attack I've ever seen). I imagine they'll be much more useful in Hades, and will get more table time then. That or a new platoon upgrade giving a unit grenades for 5 AP. If they had grenades, they'd be worth 26 AP as an assault unit. 

Finally, don't let your dislike of the regular LGs keep you from trying the best Panzer Hunters in the game, the Heavy Laser Grenadiers. Potential 18 wounds, likely 3-9 on a regular attack, 6-12 on sustained. Add Lara for the ablative wounds and Anti-Personnel slaughter potential, and you've given you're opponent a serious threat that's hard to deal with. Also, whoever doesn't think Damage Resilience is good should try to convince the Allied players in my dojo of this. They swear at me every time I pull out an extra armor die, and complain about, "What's the point in UGLs ignoring cover when ou make your armor save all the time?". I guess my dice love me. 



#11 Drag0n

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:27 PM

whoa! whoa! Question was - how make LG usable! :) Adding Angela is a one way. But I agree - she is a Sniper team "musthave". And your suggest about anti-airdrop role in defence seems reasonable for me

By the way, you cannot add Lara to LG, she is Soldier 3 class, LG - 2 class ;)



#12 Hatamoto

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 08:29 PM

 i still dont understand the range value they put on infantry weapons.. especially not 12" for freakin lasers :P



#13 Shadow4ce

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:04 PM

Drag0n said:

 

By the way, you cannot add Lara to LG, she is Soldier 3 class, LG - 2 class ;)

 

 

 I guess that is why I said add her to the Heavy Laser Grenadiers. You know, Soldier 3 class troops (who also happen to have the same 16" range as Lara).   

As far as answering how to make the LGs useful, I did so quite thoroughly. I wasn't trying to dispute your suggestion - Angela does help the LGs, albeit at a 150% cost increase, I also feel putting Angela with a range 12" unit is a poor match for her potential. She definitely helps them, but aside from leaving some of the best synergy tools home by not putting her in a Sniper team, you're only giving the LGs 2 ablative wounds (3 if you kill her off first) vs 3-4 with Sigrid or Manfred. Angela needs the spotter to make Frenzy and her Solothurn worth the 30 AP for a such a fragile model (Soldier 2, 3 Wounds). Putting her with LGs will rarely kill 51 AP before they die. Putting her with Snipers usually gets 80+ AP for the cost of 42. Much more cost-effective pairing. Which is what I was using to set up my reasoning on how to use the LGs without costing Angela her efficiency.

I'm all for thinking outside the box, and applaud you for doing so here, but sometimes obvious fits are obvious for a reason. 



#14 Major Mishap

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:55 PM

 I tried the LG's with Stephan last night  - they are absolutely hopless. I'm nicely tucked in hard cover defending an objective, Recon Boy's & Johny One-eye advance to 15" range and take pot shots.  LG's can not do anything, can't even move out to engage as they would only get reactive shot at while moving.  I did manage to risk it (suppressed them) and get to move out and shoot for 1 turn, but with Stephan not in range they just roll 5 dice.  Ran back into cover the following turn before I received Sustained fire with 10 dice.  The LG's suffer trying to get into range of 16" enemy weapons and will get blown apart by the Allied CC guy's as they can't put out enough damage to slow them.  It's lose-lose all the way with LG's.



#15 Maverickg

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 12:43 AM

It seems no matter how you slice it, with a 12" range on a mediocre weapon LGs are just a waste of a section in your force no matter what hero you can put with them.  I plan to replace LGs with recon gren or battle gren as soon as I can get the models.  Perhaps lv 4 infantry could make them viable in the future, but for now they are benched.



#16 icevvind

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 07:27 AM

With very light math calculations and knowing a dice got 33% of rolling a hit… a laser grenadier squad gots an average rate of 3.65 hits with a sustained attack (maybe my maths are wrong)… pitifull. I really think that a easy way to balance them could be to increase its range. A recon boys unit hits for 3.84 times at 16'' (where LG cant) and for 4.95 at 12''… and they can hit vehicle 3 and 7 too.

Dunno, im a bit dissapointed now… I wish theres something about LG im not seeing right now…



#17 Major Mishap

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 11:03 AM

icevvind said:

With very light math calculations and knowing a dice got 33% of rolling a hit… a laser grenadier squad gots an average rate of 3.65 hits with a sustained attack (maybe my maths are wrong)… pitifull. I really think that a easy way to balance them could be to increase its range. A recon boys unit hits for 3.84 times at 16'' (where LG cant) and for 4.95 at 12''… and they can hit vehicle 3 and 7 too.

Dunno, im a bit dissapointed now… I wish theres something about LG im not seeing right now…

Best way is to go and play Dust Tactics and team up with Sigrids Berserk :) re-roll misses with sustained, re-roll hits with beserk and keep on re-rolling until you hit no more - much better :)



#18 thejughead

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:15 AM

I believe the best choices to be Manfred or Sigrid. 

Manfred gives you 18" range with his assault ability with no reactions.  Although risky it does allow them to be capable of first strike.It gives you 7 dice to attack with 5 allowed to have an extra roll for hits.  This unit does not function without support, so with a fire team of RG or BGs is neccessary to followup and further suppress the enemy.

Sigrid gives them 8 dice with a one time use of 18" range and bezerk ( essentially sustained fire ).  With Sigrid they are only good for supporting other units once the enemy is already engaged. Keeping them within 6" of the unit they are supporting. The ideal way to use them for forward operations is when you do not have initiative. Move and attack with effective 18" range using Bezerk. If you do not win initiative then issue it a blitzkrieg to move back.

In conclusion, you cannot justify them alone or without a hero.  The only way to un-nerf this unit is for FFG to change how Laser weapons work. FAT chance of that happening within a year. IMO, laser weapons hits should ignore cover divided in half rounding up, ex. 3 hits from lasers would have 2 hits without cover and one hit a product of a save.

Chances to hit with 8 dice

#hits   %

0            3.90

1          15.61

2          27.31

3          27.31

4          17.07

5            6.83

6            1.71

7            0.24

8            0.02

 



#19 spoook

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 03:30 PM

 I would also agreed the Laser Grenadiers are not good in combat with out a hero. My hero of choice would be Stefan. I think the Flammerwerfer is a more suitable match over the Panzerfaust.



#20 spoook

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Posted 05 August 2012 - 06:07 PM

Major Mishap said:

 

 I tried the LG's with Stephan last night  - they are absolutely hopless. I'm nicely tucked in hard cover defending an objective, Recon Boy's & Johny One-eye advance to 15" range and take pot shots.  LG's can not do anything, can't even move out to engage as they would only get reactive shot at while moving.  I did manage to risk it (suppressed them) and get to move out and shoot for 1 turn, but with Stephan not in range they just roll 5 dice.  Ran back into cover the following turn before I received Sustained fire with 10 dice.  The LG's suffer trying to get into range of 16" enemy weapons and will get blown apart by the Allied CC guy's as they can't put out enough damage to slow them.  It's lose-lose all the way with LG's.

 

 

Stefan adds the "Assault" special ability to the whole unit. Which means after a march move no units can react to your movement  after you move, only before you move. So the trick is to march move into range then sustain fire the next turn. 






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