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Cover, shield, imperiql fist tech marine


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#1 Bcsordas

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 07:39 AM

Hi,

 

Situation: Imperial fist tech marine requisited a Naval shield - Inquisitor handbook page 168 average item - cost is 8 requisit.

In combat he would like to use it to dig in - cover 8 + iq bonus 6 - using the solo mode ability x2 cover - total of 28 cover, or is it 2X8+6?

After fights he throw up some repair cement and he is good.

 

Until this i could use the normal rules, no matter how powerfull i feel it is.

But what will happen if i throw against him some melee guy. He will have a primitive defensive weapon. He expect to have at least the extra AP for the chest and the left arm locations. It is a promitive weapon so i think the AP should be 4, but as the cover rating was 8 i am not sure i coud half of this or not. Armour 8 would be a bit too good compared to the storm shield AP 4. And i think the other shield in DW core book do not give AP so i am a bit confused how to handle shield rules in the Deathwatch.

Ofc because the shield is primitive i will destroy it with a power weapon, so he asked me the cost to improve it with powerfield quality. He is a techmarine and willing to spend wargear to create his own shield.  Based on his RP all is good, but i do not want to give him too much power over the others.

What should i do if i let him to get powerfield on the shield,  AP 8 and cover 16???

I already agree with him there wont be a forcefield option.

THX

 



#2 Kshatriya

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:26 PM

I'd let pretty much anything destroy that shield. Tau pulse fire, CSM chainswords, tyranid claws, etc. It's not really meant to stand up to that stuff. Also…this is why you don't use other game line sources. They are not balanced against each other at all. A damned Imperial Navy riot shield SHOULD NEVER BE a better option than an Astartes combat shield, let alone a storm shield.



#3 Nathiel

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:42 PM

I think you are being overly generous. Use whichever math gives the lower rating.  Also, The ability to improve the cover from it should render it completely useless as a shield afterward.  At the very least, any 'damaging cover' done to it would come right off the base AP, not the improved AP.  In melee it should be nowhere near as good as a shield designed for use by Astartes.  It isn't going to cover their hulking selves the same way it would a mortal.  If you are going to allow it to be modified to a power field, then it gains just that. the ability to not be instantly destroyed by power weapons. definitely nothing more than that. and that will short out as soon as they brace it in the ground and pile other debris on it to 'improve cover' from it. heck, I'd have the thing lose AP from any attack that hit it and bypassed it's AP. 

Now, if he started out with a Storm Shield, took 'Signature Wargear:Master' and modified it to be big enough to use in the same manner as the riot shield thing instead of the regular bonus from the talent, then he'd be starting with something sturdy enough and with enough power behind it to stand up to what's going to be thrown at it.



#4 Kshatriya

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 05:46 AM

Yeah agreed with the math. Multiplication comes before addition at any rate. So base times two, then plus four.

Also agree on overly generous and as a reminder, the cover of the Navy Shield was never balanced with things like the DW use for Evaluate, the Techmarine special ability, and/or the Imperial Fist talent in mind. Don't let your player talk you into thinking it was.

Also if it is a Navy Shield, it is scaled for mortals, meaning your "cover" should be, if anything, like an arm and not even the body. An Arbiutes riot shield is probably smaller or the same size as an Astartes buckler.



#5 Captain Ventris

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 06:05 AM

I wouldn't apply abilities that apply to cover to shields. I see things like the Imperial Fists ability as shifting rubble into more stable positions, punching holes to fire through, using rubble to support the stability of your Aegis lines, etc., not using Dorn-magic to make a wall thicker, and if he wants to prop his shield up between two rocks, I'd still not raise the defensive value of the shield itself - it's meant to be hand-held (albeit by a Space Marine). It doesn't have supports behind it other than you, and it's not going to be SO thick that it could get in the way, whereas actual fortifications have no choice but to be extremely thick and heavy. I'd consider a shield Armor instead for rules purposes. Using it like a large fallen stone does not make it behave like a large fallen stone.



#6 herichimo

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:20 AM

Nathiel said:

 

it gains just that. the ability to not be instantly destroyed by power weapons. definitely nothing more than that.

 

 

Just a correction. Power weapons do not break weapons when the other weapon parries the power weapon. Only when the power weapon is doing the parrying.

Other than that I agree with all that you've said Nathiel. It doesn't make sense a carry-along shield should be very effective when used with a solo-mode ability. I would have ruled, hard and fast, the imperial fist could not "find the best place to hide behind a piece of equipment." Where is the load bearing column, the rebar reinforced section, or the part of the shield with 2 feet of dirt in front of it? Not to mention the damn thing wouldn't even cover his entire body, how the heck is going to be hiding behind it "more efficiently" than normal?

Putting the shield behind or in front of a strong point identified in natural cover with his solo mode I would allow, but only adding the shields cover rating to the doubled (solo mode) natural cover, no doubling the shields cover. Similar to using multiple layers of cover.

Finally, why in the world would a space marine even want to requisition normal human equipment. Its equivalent of putting an Ogryn in a china shop and telling him to pick out something pretty. Nothing in the shop is appropriate for the Ogryn, and though everything might be shiny at first glance but just trying to hold them the Ogryn would destroy it. Mortal weapons and gear are useful when you have nothing else.



#7 Bcsordas

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 10:11 PM

Thank you for the replys.

Maybe i am too generous, i will tell his to the players when they will cry next time hehe.

He want to requisit a common shield because the 2 shield in DW needs a lot of honor to get, meaning around rank 4-5. At rank one u have to choose alternative solutions.

Sadly we do not have a basic shield without forcefield installed in the core game book.

Shield rules are lacking currently for this game, as in normal world those are very usefull even in our current age, not mentioned what can we could do with them with powerfield. I think i will create a basic shield as a AP4 for arm and chest, balanced weapon and nothing else.

I just feel we miss something cool without better cover rules, i realy like old roman tacticks, experienced infantry, big shields, cover against missiles, shield walls, push enemy, kill the horda without loosing too much, or the horda manage to break the wall and big mess, chaos all around.

All idea is welcome; i shoud develop some house rules without ruin the balance if i want shield actions more in the game.



#8 herichimo

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 09:46 AM

Well, those basic shields just aren't really part of space marine tactics. Space Marines have their power armor (though I will admit, when facing many enemies even power armor is about as usefull as wet paper).

Generally you shouldn't be allowing your deathwatch marines to requisition normal human gear unless the marine is part of a human centric campaign setting, such as a kill-marine in a Rogue Trader campaign. Its just not something space marines do, this is touched upon in the guidelines to requisition in one of the rulebooks, RoB I think, if not then the core book.



#9 Nathiel

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 05:54 PM

Realy, there is a reason shields are used now a days in a riot control situation almost exclusively.  They are simply not up to the task of dealing with armed opposition. unruly mobs throwing bricks and such, Bring those suckers out! an angry mob with guns? find something solid to hide behind. 

Honestly, an IF Techie should have no problem coming up with cover when he needs it. Every picture of any place in 40k is either strewn with debris or covered in ornate decoration. You have a servo arm. pull down a freakin wall and use it for cover.  When you get the renown to get a 'real' Astartes shield, then go for it.  don't try to bypass the renown system with something silly. That's what I'd tell them.



#10 Bcsordas

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 08:37 PM

About modern shields from a guy from other forum:

-We used a ballistic shield on every op we went on when I was in SWAT. - Ofc i dont know the guy so it can be just a geek who want to talk big.

Basicly they are using some soilder with shield to provide cover for the others. To be honest i dont have any real fighting experience, only from airsoft, but a good shield cover could be extremly usefull.

On game side i agree with u; there is a bit imbalanced with the rules we have, tho i see no problem for a marine to use something usefull if he want, especially as tech marine will have the contacts to make astartes version of the human shield. With powerfield the wh40k world has the technology to create good shield for cover, and with forcefield they can further improve it as stormshield.

 



#11 herichimo

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 05:49 AM

Bcsordas said:

About modern shields from a guy from other forum:

-We used a ballistic shield on every op we went on when I was in SWAT. - Ofc i dont know the guy so it can be just a geek who want to talk big.

Basicly they are using some soilder with shield to provide cover for the others. To be honest i dont have any real fighting experience, only from airsoft, but a good shield cover could be extremly usefull.

On game side i agree with u; there is a bit imbalanced with the rules we have, tho i see no problem for a marine to use something usefull if he want, especially as tech marine will have the contacts to make astartes version of the human shield. With powerfield the wh40k world has the technology to create good shield for cover, and with forcefield they can further improve it as stormshield.

 

Well SWAT usually doesn't have to worry about full power military weapons (at least with domestic cases). Shotguns, handguns, and melee weapons in close quarters environments are about what they'd expect in most cituations. A big slab of mylar would provide enough protection until the suprise (bad guys or SWAT guys) wear off and the SWAT team can effectively neutralize the threat. When dealing with military grade weapons that slab of mylar is only stopping 2 things, jack and $***. Luckily if the SWAT are going up against dudes with military grade weapons they would know about it ahead of time, since SWAT are not first responders, and would modify their tactics and gear accordingly.

As for making a shield and giving it a power field, well thats a combat shield… If you're going to let him make something that is essentially another thing he can't get yet, why not just go ahead and drop the requirements and let him take the combat shield anyways.

I'll just warn you though, power fields can be very annoying, if too many of them are spread throughout your squad it will be very difficult for you, the GM, to make almost any situation challenging for your players.



#12 Bcsordas

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:19 AM

Power field is not the same as forcefield.

The lesser shield in the book has both, i want to create one withouth the forcefield, so no field rating just 4 ap.



#13 herichimo

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 07:02 AM

Ah, well, still no reason too.

You can parry power weapons all day with your normal weapons and nothing will happen. The only time a power field can break a weapon is when the power weapon parries the normal weapon. So unless you plan on shield bashing everyone I don't see a point to the power field.

Still don't think its a great idea. Your setting a precedent the players can bring in anything they want and create or modify something something from another source to give them a big advantage. What happens if a player wants an assassin's skin-suit? All I suggest is you should follow the guidelines for requisition. But, its your game, do what you want.



#14 Kshatriya

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 02:32 PM

herichimo said:

You can parry power weapons all day with your normal weapons and nothing will happen.

Wow that's pretty dumb.



#15 Nathiel

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 03:46 AM

One of the many things changed n BC that my group likes.  Power weapons break others when parying or being parried in BC.



#16 Kshatriya

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 07:02 AM

Nathiel said:

One of the many things changed n BC that my group likes.  Power weapons break others when parying or being parried in BC.

I really need to do a deep-reading of BC. I've ported a number of BC rules over (mainly ZH, combat actions/modifiers and the nastiest weapon qualities like Toxic and Concussive) but there are several that appear to have slipped through the cracks.






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