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Heavy weapons and training talents


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#1 skinny dragon

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 11:49 PM

I think that we need to alter how heavy weapon training works slightly.  I propose an increased penalty for using heavy weapons untrained with each of their training talents stepping this penalty down.

This solves a couple of problems

  1. A soldier with no training in the weapon at all would now be less proficient than one with half the trainings
  2. Heavy weapons training will now have a direct impact on its own
  3. A weapon requiring two proficiencies because of its complication is now actually harder to use untrained

I have been toying around with this in my head to try and get the balance right but I would appreciae feedback on the options if you even think its a good idea.

option 1 a -40 penalty to satrt and each proficiency taking it down by 20 ( think the initial hit is too high)

option 2 a -30 initial penalty and each proficieny taking it down by 15 (quite like this one but it would probably involve more re-writing)

option 3 a - 30 initial penalty hvy weapons gives -10 and type gives -20 (simplest to rewrite/understand but I'm not sure if hvy weapons training would balance with the weapon traing type talents)

option 4 a -30 inintal penalty hvy weapons give -20 type gives -10 ( donh't like personally but included for completeness)

 



#2 Musclewizard

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 11:53 PM

I'm doing something similar in my games but in the other direction.
If you are operating a Heavy Laser weapon for example and you have only heavy weapon training or only las weapon training you can use the weapon at -10. If you have both its +-0.

Personally I'm not a fan of putting even more penalties on players when using heavy weapons but if you think it's reaonsable you shoud go with -30. -40 is a very strong penalty that should not be handed out lightly.



#3 MorioMortis

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 05:54 AM

 I'd say -30 at max, heavy weapon accounting for 10 while the weapon type is 20.

-40 means that even the best shooter in the guard probably can't hit anything with it unless it's right in his face. For the average Joe, -40 means he will never be able to hit anything with the weapon in combat (which, although probably hilarious, does not make for fun gameplay).


The stupid must be bashed upon the head with the Mallet of Wisdom until their heads are inflated with knowledge.

 

Words to live (and die) by : "I have officially Been out-rogue tradered!  As always, one must always assume that no matter how grand your plan is, it's never enough!" - RogalDorn1


#4 Varn

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 09:37 AM

This is a terrible idea on so many levels.

To begin with, it bogs down the game and makes progression even harder.

It also makes no sense. Weapon training gives a person the ability to use pistol, basic and vehicle weapons of that type. A heavy weapon is basically just a scaled up version of whatever weapon type, the operation of it isn't going to be THAT much different. When I was in Basic Training, I unfortunately  did not get a chance to train on the M2 .50cal, but I was trained on the M249 and M240B. If you sat an M2 in front of me right now, I am almost certain I could load, fire and preform immediate action on it without much trouble. Oh yes I probably wouldn't be a very good shot and I'd have a hell of a time tryingot take it apart and clean it, but the fact still remains that it's nothing more than a up-scaled belt fed machine gun. And while I'm sure Plasma and Melta weapons are probably a fair bit more complicated than SP guns, people who are trained in their use shouldn't have too much trouble figuring them out.

Also, heavy weapons are already quite easy to use. In most cases, if someone other than a Heavy Gunner is using a heavy weapon, its vehicle mounted, and if they have the Operate (Surface) talents, which a lot of regiments give, then they can use it no problem. Take it off the vehicle and suddenly the person is absolutely terrible with it? How does that make sense?

Finally, Rule of Cool man. The Heavy Gunner goes down and someone else needs to jump on the gun becasue **** has really hit the fan and oh god they're coming out of the walls and they have a tank, oh wait, whats that, I take a huge penalty and am not allowed to even try to be cool and have fun in a game?

IMHO -20 is plenty penalty for person without Heavy training, any more than that and you're just trying to screw the player.



#5 skinny dragon

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 05:29 AM

Musclewizard said:

I'm doing something similar in my games but in the other direction.
If you are operating a Heavy Laser weapon for example and you have only heavy weapon training or only las weapon training you can use the weapon at -10. If you have both its +-0..

1I do like this idea. Sorry to start a thread and leave it hangingb but I've just got my net back.   One of the main reasons I didn't propose it myself was that I thought it would make the re-write harder if it became rules but that's the job of FFG not us beta testers isn't it.

I think you may have missed my point slightly Varn as if I understand the guns you are referring to properly you would already have sp training which would mean trhat under two of my proposals you wouild still be on the same -20 and under the other two propsals be better off on a -15 or even -10 which would both be better.than rules as written



#6 Varn

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 06:00 PM

Going back and rereading this thread over a few times it would appear I misunderstood it the first time through. However, I still think that the current system isn't terribly flawed. If you start throwing in huge penaltys that get redued by various amounts based on training you end up with a huge book keeping headache and have to rewrite and add in a lot of stuff tot he rule book. Then what happens when someone has the Heavy training but not the base training, does that still lessen the penatly despite the fact the character has no idea how the basic operation of the weapon type works? Now magicly anyone with WT (Heavy) gets a huge bonus to using every other type of weapon there is. It works one way, but not in reverse, and making that clear in the rules leads to even more headaches.



#7 skinny dragon

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:33 AM

I'll use an example to show why I think the RAW don't work and how botrh my preferred and Muscle Wizards possibly better solution affect it

We'll use 3 characters with identical BS

A has bolt las and sp training

B has hvy las and sp training

C has las melta and sp traIning

They find a Muilti-melta

 

Under RAW all chars are on -20 to hit as none of them have the 2 proficincies required

My solution (with 10 for heavy and 20 for type) then A is -30 for not knowing any proficiencies, B is - 20 for heavy training but not matching type, and C is       -10 for matching type but not having heavy training

MuscleWizards solution then A is -20 for no proficiency while B and C are -10 for one proficiency each.

I'm not sure how you thought heavy weapon training would give chars bonuses for other weapon types when they aren't even proficient in the heavy weapon vaariant



#8 DJSunhammer

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 12:49 AM

I don't see how this is a problem. If you aren't trained with a weapon then you just won't know how to use it.



#9 HTMC

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 03:13 PM

DJSunhammer said:

I don't see how this is a problem. If you aren't trained with a weapon then you just won't know how to use it.

I'll second this, I don't see why you think Heavy Weapons Training needs adjustment in the first place, which kind of negates any suggestions you've made in my mind. Would you care to explain why you think this kind of adjustment is necessary?



#10 skinny dragon

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:53 PM

My problem with the heavy weapon training talent is that on its own it does absolutely nothing, it's the only weapon training talent that doesn't train you in a weapon.  Also it gives very few weapon proficiencies even when its tied to other weapon training talents (only one or two per additional talent) while every other training talent gives at least three on its own (including the heavy weapon if it happens to be on a vehicle). 

My other problem is that while heavy weapons require two talents to learn neither talent provides any bonus (or penalty reduction) on its own (this is more a logic issue (yeah I know 40k isn't logical)).  Normally in real life if you need to know two things to do something well then knowing either thing on its own is going to be a lot better than not knowinganything about it.

If heavy weapon training was universal that would also fix the problem but I think the inbalance it would make would tip the scales far more in the other direction and make it better than any other training talent.

I suppose it could also be fixed by putting in weapon training melee, pistol, basic and vehicle and insisting that characters had two matching talents for each weapon type which could also give more variation to character creation but would require a lot of rebalancing depending on who got which trainings and where they were added



#11 Andor

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 12:55 AM

I think it's a non-issue.

WT talents are already both too broad and too narrow, and apply to the wrong things*. So just don't sweat it.

* For example I'm proficient with pistols, rifles and shotguns. Clearly I have WT SP, right? I have only the vaguest notion of how a heavy machine gun is operated. Nonetheless after a burst of two to get the feel I think I could do pretty well shooting one. However when it came time to reload it I would be lucky if I only took 10 times as long as a skilled operator. Likewise clearing a jam, an easy and fast task (half action?) for any weapon I'm proficient with, would be a major task. But lineing up the sights? Not a mystery.



#12 Varn

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 01:29 AM

Indeed. Heavy training differs from weapon type training in that it's more theory than practical. If you are trained on a weapon, then using a heavy version of that weapon won't be impossible since you already know the basic operation of the weapon, just not the finer details of using a heavy version. On the flip side of that, I could try to explain the nuance of a heavy weapon to someone, the slige varion in how it handles and operates, but that person still has no idea how that type of weapon operates even in general, so Heavy training won't give them any real benefit.

Honestly, I say leave it up to the GM. For general purpose usage, if you don't have the training you take the listed penalty or you just can't use it. If it's a special situation or you playing by the Rule of Cool, let the GM decide.

Like I've said before, every gaming group is different and they all have their own little quirky likes and dislikes. Some like their game more realistic but free flowing, other like more crunch while still yet others like to fly by the seat of their pants and do whatever they like as the mood strikes them.



#13 Darklordofbunnies

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:20 AM

Just for my 2 cents: I think that the heavy weapon talent should make you proficient with heavy weapons, period. We've established that there is no logical way to explain why someone who can operate a melta gun can't fire a multi-melta. It wouldn't make sense the other way around either, but it would help the heavy out some. Having a weapon talent that literally does nothing without other talents is also silly. Just let heavy weapon training represent that this guy got trained on all heavy weapons and can be reasonably expected to handle and fire them.



#14 KommissarK

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:26 AM

I'll admit, I'm fine with having half of the talents reducing the penalty for using the weapons. I don't think it needs to be increased.

Generally, I make the lack of having the training have more to do with the inability to perform maintenance/reload the weapon more than the the penalty on shooting. At my table, it represents a broader lack of understanding in how to properly treat the weapon. In the case of heavy weapons, lacking both the talents would still make it difficult to know how to handle the weapon. You may have plasma training, but without having it and heavy weapon training, you're still as likely to mess up reloading a plasma cannon.

One thing to also consider is how this works with Armsmen. Perhaps having Weapon Training Heavy, and Armsmen = no penalty? As it is right now, the talent is barely worth the XP.



#15 Darklordofbunnies

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 06:37 AM

KommissarK said:

I'll admit, I'm fine with having half of the talents reducing the penalty for using the weapons. I don't think it needs to be increased.

Generally, I make the lack of having the training have more to do with the inability to perform maintenance/reload the weapon more than the the penalty on shooting. At my table, it represents a broader lack of understanding in how to properly treat the weapon. In the case of heavy weapons, lacking both the talents would still make it difficult to know how to handle the weapon. You may have plasma training, but without having it and heavy weapon training, you're still as likely to mess up reloading a plasma cannon.

One thing to also consider is how this works with Armsmen. Perhaps having Weapon Training Heavy, and Armsmen = no penalty? As it is right now, the talent is barely worth the XP.

I like this idea. It just hurts my head that someone who can use a plasma gun can't figure out a plasma cannon. There are differences in scale and setup to be sure but a -20 penalty to hit seems about the most ham-fisted way of making you get the talent for both. The Armsmen thing has bugged me too; I almost sent it to the proofreading thread because as written it basically does nothing.



#16 KommissarK

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:05 AM

Armsmen does what it always has done. It's just that Armsmen really shouldn't be classed as a tier 3 talent. It just becomes so expensive that it's not worth taking over the 2 or 3 weapon trainings it would take to mimic the gear you would ever find in your character's lifetime (beyond the 3 the character already ahs to have as a part of its pre-requisite). It almost should be a tier 1 talent, as its still ultimately sub par to taking the trainings. That said, it has its uses.



#17 DJSunhammer

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 07:22 AM

KommissarK said:

Armsmen does what it always has done. It's just that Armsmen really shouldn't be classed as a tier 3 talent. It just becomes so expensive that it's not worth taking over the 2 or 3 weapon trainings it would take to mimic the gear you would ever find in your character's lifetime (beyond the 3 the character already ahs to have as a part of its pre-requisite). It almost should be a tier 1 talent, as its still ultimately sub par to taking the trainings. That said, it has its uses.

I agree, it was only useful in DH because some classes didn't have those particular weapon talents in their tables at all. Armsman could be a suitable substitute in those cases. It really isn't even necessary in OW, since weapon talents are so cheap and unrestricted.



#18 WizardThatDidIt

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:20 AM

 My solution?

 

My solution was just to throw the Heavy Weapon training talent out (since it wasnt even properly printed in the book) and go with allowing Weapon Training (X) to allow you to use all weapons in that category (Heavy, Basic, Pistol, etc).






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