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Encumberance issues with game in general


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#1 Pappystein

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:57 AM

So I originally posted this in the proofreading changes sub-forum.

But then I realized it is more wide-spread than just the armory.

 

Pt 1   Armory Corrections

Correction: Weights
My group upon completing our first few missions discovered something that has not been mentioned before that I have seen. below are just a few examples (forum will not allow posting of a table so I saved am only posting a sample.)
Frag Missile 0.5kg before 4kg after
Krak Missile 0.5kg before 4kg after
Minefield Round 1kg before 2kg after Increase damage/effect
Photon Flash Round 1kg before 1.5kg after Increase damage/effect

For a point of comparison. The Krak missile which is roughly analogous to the FGM-77 Dragon anti-tank missile (as well as many others,) has a range that is similar than the Dragon. But the dragon masses in higher at 10.9-12.2 kg (Variant depending.)
Mortar rounds and Frag missiles need an increased damage or effect bonus as there is little reason to use them vs other weapons (damage too close to hand grenades.) Even grenade launcher grenades are more effective than hand grenades in the real world.
Just my groups thoughts on the matter.
Pappystein

PS under the current mass for missiles I have a player running around with 16 missiles in his and his Comrade/Squadmate packs. In his words "I can carry 20 lbs of missiles by myself!"
 



#2 KommissarK

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:07 AM

Gotta say, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The point of the launcher/mortar is that it can land a grenade at ranges that your average human has no hope of hitting by a simple throw. When was the last time you only had a -30 bonus to throw a grenade a 1.2 KM distance accurately?

As far as missile launcher weights… 40k is not the real world, parity with real weapons is not needed. Also, given how much people are complaining about being encumbered already, I doubt adding even more to it is going to increase fun at most tables.

So the gunner is carrying the 16 missiles, the launcher, his armour, and other "useful" pieces of his standard kit? Also, I would be sketchy on the use of a comrade to carry ammo like that. I guess that is their role, but nothing states how much. If I had to rule it, I would say thematically they do carry the ammo, but that the PC still needs to account for the weight. The benefit I would provide is to remove the risk of ammo detonating on certain critical effects.

35 kg missile launcher, 11 kg guard flak, 4 kg lasgun, and at least 3 kg worth of other stuff? And these 20kg of missiles?

Whats his SB+TB? 10?



#3 Pappystein

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:15 AM

I need to limit my scope here a little bit.   Even though I am pretty good at converting Kilograms to my local Pounds (2.205kg to a pound) It escaped my mind briefly when I was looking at table 1-7.    My main concern is the weight of many of the items in the Armory at this juncture.   35kg for the missile launcher for the above missile issue for example.   again siting the modern (if now not in service) FGM-77 Dragon:  The carrying weight of a missile round, including the launcher but not the tracker, was about 15 kg (33 lb).   The Tracker masses in at about 3 kg so for the all up unit, launcher, missile and tracker 18kg.   Instead we have 36kg for our weapon and it is shoulder fired (vs mounted to a Bipod as is the Dragon!)

 

Pappystein



#4 KommissarK

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:19 AM

You really should stop trying to compare real weapons to fake weapons, it'll save you a lot of headaches in the long run.



#5 Pappystein

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:24 AM

KommissarK said:

Gotta say, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The point of the launcher/mortar is that it can land a grenade at ranges that your average human has no hope of hitting by a simple throw. When was the last time you only had a -30 bonus to throw a grenade a 1.2 KM distance accurately?

As far as missile launcher weights… 40k is not the real world, parity with real weapons is not needed. Also, given how much people are complaining about being encumbered already, I doubt adding even more to it is going to increase fun at most tables.

So the gunner is carrying the 16 missiles, the launcher, his armour, and other "useful" pieces of his standard kit? Also, I would be sketchy on the use of a comrade to carry ammo like that. I guess that is their role, but nothing states how much. If I had to rule it, I would say thematically they do carry the ammo, but that the PC still needs to account for the weight. The benefit I would provide is to remove the risk of ammo detonating on certain critical effects.

35 kg missile launcher, 11 kg guard flak, 4 kg lasgun, and at least 3 kg worth of other stuff? And these 20kg of missiles?

Whats his SB+TB? 10?

KommissarK said:

Gotta say, I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The point of the launcher/mortar is that it can land a grenade at ranges that your average human has no hope of hitting by a simple throw. When was the last time you only had a -30 bonus to throw a grenade a 1.2 KM distance accurately?

No my problem is the weight of the Mortar round and the Thrown grenade are for all intents and purposes the same/too close together.   Also when is the last time you saw a Mortar do the same damage as a hand grenade?   Even a 60mm Mortar does significantly more damage than a Hand grenade.

KommissarK said:

As far as missile launcher weights… 40k is not the real world, parity with real weapons is not needed. Also, given how much people are complaining about being encumbered already, I doubt adding even more to it is going to increase fun at most tables.

So in short in the Higher tech world of the future, you are stating it is even lower tech than we are today?    Sorry something is not right with that statement.   I am not seeking pairity, I am seeking reason in a storm of what is currently not reasonable.

Re Encumberence I am hoping to fix much of those complaints along this thread.   The Launcher should be significantly lighter,   Worn items (armor) should not count full weight as if it was carried (Armor is designed to support itself after all!)   I am leaving for my play group shortly but I will post more on this later today

 



#6 ItsUncertainWho

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 07:07 AM

Pappystein said:

 

…  Worn items (armor) should not count full weight as if it was carried (Armor is designed to support itself after all!)   I am leaving for my play group shortly but I will post more on this later today

 

 

Actually anything worn on the upper body is going to carry the weight through the shoulders, anything on the legs will carry the weight through the hips and/or shoulders with suspenders. Only power armor will carry it's own weight. 

Modern carry systems and backpacks are designed to shift weight distribution and relieve stress points normally placed directly on the shoulders. By fitting more tightly and having more contact points modern carry systems reduce direct fatigue to the shoulders by distributing the pressure more evenly across the torso. Instead of heavily fatiguing one area of the body, the shoulders, the fatigue is distributed to a larger area. 

I would suggest giving backpacks and/or webbing the ability to reduce the difficulty of a toughness test to resist fatigue from carried weight by one level. This way it doesn't make the player stronger or tougher, it just eases the ability to carry more by extending the time before fatigue sets in.



#7 Varn

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 11:54 AM

Pappystein said:

 

KommissarK said:

 

Even a 60mm Mortar does significantly more damage than a Hand grenade.

I'm going to need a citation here. As someone who was in the US Army and handled explosives, I'm telling you right now that a 60mm mortar shell is no more effective than a hand grenade. The 60mm M888 HE round and the M67 Fragmentation grenade both have an Effective Casualty Radius of 15 meters and a Kill Radius of 5 meters.

And as stated before, 40K is NOT real life, and trying to draw correlations between the two does not work. In 40K, computers are huge and relatively limited in their capabilities, yet laser small efficient laser weapons are common place. Tech is so degenerated from it's former glory, almsot nothing works how it was suposed to or was intended. The Leman Russ, the primary armored unti of the Imperium, is based on the SCT of a FARM TRACTOR. Techpriests pour oils on computers and burn incents and chant and pray becasue they think that will make the machine work, most have absolutely no ******* clue how things really work, they just know what they have been taught: this thing goes here and that thing goes there and it should work if all the bits are in the right place. 40K is a GRIMDARK setting. Things arent supposed to make sense, it's all thematic, so stop trying to apply logic to it.



#8 Pappystein

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:59 PM

ItsUncertainWho said:

Pappystein said:

 

…  Worn items (armor) should not count full weight as if it was carried (Armor is designed to support itself after all!)   I am leaving for my play group shortly but I will post more on this later today

 

 

Actually anything worn on the upper body is going to carry the weight through the shoulders, anything on the legs will carry the weight through the hips and/or shoulders with suspenders. Only power armor will carry it's own weight.

 

While I agree 100% with what you are stating, the fact of the matter is, CARRY weight is that of OFF Center weight, IE not evenly carried on shoulder or Hip.   IE what you CARRY in your arms, (or in some sort of bag/pack.)   I am not referencing anything but the Armor at this point when I say, the carry weight and the static (IE on a scale) weight should not be considered the same provided the Carry weight is with the armor being properly worn.

 

 



#9 Pappystein

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 06:15 PM

Ok since everyone is on a "It isn't logical because it isn't the real world" spin let me throw some numbers right out of another 40K Fantasy Flight RPG.   Deathwatch;   

 

So I am going to quote some flavor/rules text from the Deathwatch RPG to prove my point here.

Now to quote from Deathwatch (P152) "A missile is fitted with stabilization and guidance systems to aid in its accuracy, which is excellent at long ranges. … The standard Astartes missile launcher is a tube-like weapon that fires a single round at great accuracy. The Soundstrike pattern overcomes
the single capacity of the launch tube by attaching a special missile rack and auto-loader to a backpack power unit. The auto-loader’s gripping claw rapidly refills the launcher from the back-mounted ammo source…"

From the above we know the launcher includes the weight of the backpack. We also know the guidance system is on the missile itself (and not the launcher.)

From Deathwatch (P159) "A weapon connected to a backpack supply uses that supply for its ammunition and ignores its normal clip size. Backpack Ammo/Power supplies weigh 40 kg and are automatically issued with any heavy weapon."

Thus the included backpack with the Missile launcher is 40 kg and the Missile launcher itself, with no re-loads or ability to self reload is a whopping (50-40 =) 10 kg (22.05 lbs for those of us in North America.)

Oh and the Missile masses in Deathwatch are also higher. Thus a 10kg missile launcher with 3 to 5 2-3 kg missiles would be plausible but not easy to carry on the average Guardsman.   Currently we are 35 kg for the Launcher and 0.5 kg per missile.

 

Sorry folks,  But sometimes we NEED logic even in a world that is GRIMDARK

 

 



#10 Cifer

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 11:34 PM

@Pappystein

I'm not sure what you just proved. That weapons designed for the geneengineered supermen that the Astartes are can afford to be heavier than those for mere mortals?



#11 DJSunhammer

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Posted 22 July 2012 - 11:19 AM

No, he is saying that a missile launcher designed for mere mortals is for some reason 25kg heavier than one designed for a much larger Astartes. Considering the fact that a missile launcher is nothing more than a hollow tube with some firing mechanisms… well, it just doesn't make sense.



#12 ParadigmShift

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 05:22 AM

Marines have access to better quality equipment therefore it will be made of more durable but lighterweight materials can explain that difference in that.



#13 DJSunhammer

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 09:59 AM

A difference of more than 50 pounds? Are you joking? What is the IG missile launcher made from? Cast iron? That is an incredibly poor justification and more than that, is one that doesn't even exist. Much less make any sense.



#14 ParadigmShift

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Posted 23 July 2012 - 11:45 PM

Well you could always go for the obvious explanation of the two games are in fact seperate entities and no one thought about cross referencing the weights of things in Deathwatch and the things in Only War because when is that ever going to actually come up?



#15 Darklordofbunnies

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:33 AM

Because we live in a world where we want things to make sense. I'm not even sure what you're defending here, the weights are clearly borked. Consider this, at the dimensions given the missile launcher would have to be made out of something heavier than iridium. The missile launcher weighs 35kg (over 77lbs), that's insane. You're defending that it's ok for a hollow tube which fires missiles to weigh more than a suit of medieval full-plate and almost as much as an ogryn ripper gun. The weights need to be brought into line with what an average guardsmen could conceivably carry.

 



#16 ParadigmShift

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 04:43 AM

Wasn't really defending anything, like I said the weights thing is clearly an oversight, was just pointing out that you shouldn't be using Deathwatch as a comparison



#17 Varn

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 06:27 AM

As an American, I like to overlook most of the metric system. I have no idea how much a kilogram is, to me, it's the primary unit of measure used to determine drugs. Low and behold, this fine gentleman Darklordofbunnies, goes and points out how much 35kg is in pounds. That's ******* retarded. Now before anyone bites my head off for making the following comparison, I think the dimensions of the weapons being compared are quite similar, as are their uses. The FGM-148 Javelin ATGM with it's launch control unit weight in around 18kg. That's a big friggan missile too. Again, I get that 40K isn't exactly grounded in reality or anything, but some things are just too off the walls. I think the Missile Launcher should probably get cut down to 20kg.



#18 DJSunhammer

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:42 AM

Varn said:

As an American, I like to overlook most of the metric system. I have no idea how much a kilogram is, to me, it's the primary unit of measure used to determine drugs. Low and behold, this fine gentleman Darklordofbunnies, goes and points out how much 35kg is in pounds. That's ******* retarded. Now before anyone bites my head off for making the following comparison, I think the dimensions of the weapons being compared are quite similar, as are their uses. The FGM-148 Javelin ATGM with it's launch control unit weight in around 18kg. That's a big friggan missile too. Again, I get that 40K isn't exactly grounded in reality or anything, but some things are just too off the walls. I think the Missile Launcher should probably get cut down to 20kg.

How is that retarded? It's relevant if someone doesn't actually know how heavy 35kg is.

Also, 1kg is equal to 2.2 pounds. I say that just to spite you.



#19 Darklordofbunnies

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Posted 24 July 2012 - 08:45 AM

I think he was referring to how heavy the weight is now that it's expressed in units he can relate to, not the metric system. A 77lbs tube is retarded if it's supposed to be balanced on one shoulder for firing. The mental image of an entire tank hunting crew tipping over while trying to draw a bead on a moving tank is hilarious.



#20 Pappystein

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Posted 26 July 2012 - 01:35 PM

Ok so now that we have the Missile launcher in our sights (sorry for the pun,) I figured I would mention other weapons that feel/seem off.

The below are my opinions, but I am basing them on the text in Deathwatch, Only War, Dark Heresy and Black Crusade.

 

Plasma gun at 18kg.   That is 36 pounds.   for a rifle!

Meltagun at 15kg or 34 pounds… Again a rifle.

Sniper Rifle, Too light at 5kg  Should be more like 8 to 10 kg

Autogun too heavy at 5kg should be 4 to 4.5kg   Minimal change

I think the Stub and Auto Pistols should go down in weight but that is nit-picking again.

Man Portable Lascannon has issue similar to Missile launcher (Deathwatch the weight of the backpack is included, that weight is not removed from the Impy Guard version.)

Delete weights from Vehicle only weapons.  List them as "Vehicle" instead of a weight.

Hand Flamer.   Even with a chunk of metal to protect the hand the hand flamer is too small to mass in at 8 pounds.  Suggest 2.5kg

Grenade launcher is too heavy as well.   a standard single shot grenade launcher should be in the 4.5-6 kg range.  This would bring it in-line with the Auxiliary Grenade Launcher.

Mortar is, like a Missile launcher a tube.  It also has a base however (unlike the missile launcher)  Suggest 20kg with a note that can be broken into 2 10 kg loads to ease encumberance.   It takes 6 Full rounds to set up a Mortar in structured time.  Espically given the much more massive Mole Mortar is only 10kgs heavier currently.

Missile (Frag, Krak, Minefield and Scatter) all are WAY too light.  In Deathwatch they are in the 2-3 kg range and I think even that is too light.   Suggest 4-8 kg for the various missiles.

Mortar rounds should be between 1.5-2.5kg.   Also while their damage should be similar to the similar Grenade their blast radius should be greater (most are.) 

Either Needle Rifle needs an increase in weight or all the basic Las rifles need a decrease in weight suggest bumping Needle Rifle up to 3.5kg.  

Chainsword is good but I think the Eviscerator should have it's weight reduced to 10kg.

Power maul should increase in weight to 5kg or more.   at 3.5kg the weapon can not have any sort of defensive capabilties.  IE if you block with it, the maul would be destroyed.  

 

I will cover the armor in another post

 

 






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