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Crack shot vs Vehicles


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#1 Kamikazzijoe

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 12:14 PM

Crack shot adds +2 to critical damage and when you get righteous fury against vehicles you get to roll 1d5 on the crit table (RoB pdf slide 170).  If you have crack shot does that mean you get to roll 1d5+2?  The argument to say no is that RoB says that the d5 is not "damage" and crack shot adds "damage." 

If the answer is yes that makes this skill phenomenal against vehicles.  If the answer is no then I'm having a hard time understanding how this ability is worth 500xp to a devastator.  Given the 20+ damage range on most of their weapons the odds of ever having the +2 make a difference seem extremely low.



#2 Decessor

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 12:20 PM

Crack shot is still useful against larger non-vehicle enemies with huge toughness bonuses.



#3 Kamikazzijoe

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 03:00 PM

While I understand there may be a time that the skill saves you that one extra shot on the carnifix, but for 500 exp I wondering if there a more probable occurrence with which it can be used.  If it adds +2 to the 1d5 vs vehicles then it would be well worth it. 



#4 Nathiel

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 05:17 PM

I know the answer is no to the RF roll vs. vehicles since it is the same mechanic that became the standard in BC/OW for both vehicles and others and it is very clearly intended to be a straight 1d5 with no modifiers.

There is still a question of if it is before or after things that reduce crits. (like True Grit or whatever they call it with vehicles.) This can make a huge difference.

If you are looking at straight up 'is it worth the xp' It can make the difference when you need it.  There are other things for the same cost that you might plan to use and feel better about, but whenever you shoot things and do critical damage this works so it's not a waste either way. 



#5 herichimo

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 07:00 AM

Kamikazzijoe said:

 

… then I'm having a hard time understanding how this ability is worth 500xp to a devastator …

 

 

Are you a new player?

Vehicle rules were not implemented into the game for a long time after DW came out. Even now the vehicle rules still seemed rushed and incomplete. Point is, crack shot was meant to be used against non-vehicles, there were no rules for vehicles when the book with the ability and the xp cost came out. So its a poor statement to say, "if it don't work against vehicles its a waste." An extra wound is 500xp, space marines pay out the arse for advances, thats how it is. Whether those advances are awsome vs. certain things or not doesn't change their effectiveness versus others.

As for a definative answer to your question, I reserve judgement. I want to say, "no," simply because I know how iffy the rules for vehicles are, but at the same time I can see and understand the argument for, "yes." Talk with your GM and figure out how you want to run it. If you want a deffinative answer we can try to get one from the rules question folks, but I've not gotten a response to those for over a month now so don't hold your breath.

As for its use with RF, thats a very certain, "NO." When you deal RF against a vehicle, you are not dealing critical damage, you are just rolling on the critical chart.



#6 Kamikazzijoe

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 11:33 AM

Thank you all for your feed back.  I haven't had to fight a tank yet, but I have to say i'm feeling woefully inadequate as a DW devastator to the task compared to the old 2ed table top devastators. it used to be 2 or 3 shots and the vehicle was crippled if not destroyed.  The +2 RF crit damaged seemed like a good way to get similar results.



#7 Kshatriya

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:11 PM

Kamikazzijoe said:

Thank you all for your feed back.  I haven't had to fight a tank yet, but I have to say i'm feeling woefully inadequate as a DW devastator to the task compared to the old 2ed table top devastators. it used to be 2 or 3 shots and the vehicle was crippled if not destroyed.  The +2 RF crit damaged seemed like a good way to get similar results.

I'd probably be fine with this actually.

The simple truth is a Librarian pushing things like Smite will be a more effective tankbuster than a Devastator in Terminator armor with a CML full of kraks. Sorta sad.



#8 Naviward

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:24 AM

Kshatriya said:

 

 

I'd probably be fine with this actually.

The simple truth is a Librarian pushing things like Smite will be a more effective tankbuster than a Devastator in Terminator armor with a CML full of kraks. Sorta sad.

Sadly I think that is more of a reflection of how overpowered Smite (or any of the d10 x PR psychic powers) is than it being a problem with tankbusting Devastators. Lascannons are still a good way for anti-tank Devs to go (not bad against Carnifexs either).



#9 herichimo

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 06:47 AM

Fortunately (or un, depending on your viewpoint) smite doesn't work against vehicles. Its targeting restrictions state it, "must be targeted at a single creature." So you can't target tanks with it as tanks are not creatures. It also states, "Any creatures within 1 metre x PR of the target will also be affected by Smite," which indicates it only affects creatures, not vehicles.

So, huzzah, your devestator is better at killing tanks than your smitey librarian.



#10 Kamikazzijoe

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 01:32 PM

Since the group cant rely on the librarian's smite to help take out a tank, are there any rules to help cripple a vehicle or do more damage beyond just shooting it?  I didn't see anything about using an aim shot to hit a weak point or using demolitions well to increase your damage.  (I did notice that DH demolitions lets you increase the difficulty to up the damage)  Intentionally shooting out the treads is a time honored tradition.



#11 Librarian

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 09:51 PM

 you can go with the time honored tradition of bringing a bigger tank..and by that I mean a thunderhawk. but seriously vehicles armor value is too high in most cases. I would rather see all armor drop a moderate amount and there Structure increased. given a point blank multimelta shot will on Average barely scratch the paint on a land raider, do minimal damage to a predator front armor, and probeblly one shot a rhino but its a death trap on tracks. 

the higher armored vehicles could use with having there armor dropped by 10 or so but there SI increased by 25 or so.



#12 Naviward

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Posted 17 July 2012 - 09:53 PM

Kamikazzijoe said:

 

Since the group cant rely on the librarian's smite to help take out a tank, are there any rules to help cripple a vehicle or do more damage beyond just shooting it?  I didn't see anything about using an aim shot to hit a weak point or using demolitions well to increase your damage.  (I did notice that DH demolitions lets you increase the difficulty to up the damage)  Intentionally shooting out the treads is a time honored tradition.

 

 

 

Sadly as you say, their aren't any specific rules for this, above emperor's fury and then getting the a 1D5 crit result which might effect the speed of the tank (or lower the armour or so on).

A simple add-on would then be to allow a called shot against the tank, then if they crit you apply the crit result that makes the most sense for the location they called shot against rather than rolling.

Beyond that you'd have to make up your own rules. A demolitions check for grenades and rockets, common lore (tech or war) or tactics (armoured) would all make sense, then you could allow for crits on 9 or 10 with auto confirm or something like that. That way it's still not a certainty (you don't want the treads blown off every tank every fight after all).



#13 Kshatriya

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Posted 18 July 2012 - 02:22 PM

herichimo said:

Fortunately (or un, depending on your viewpoint) smite doesn't work against vehicles. Its targeting restrictions state it, "must be targeted at a single creature." So you can't target tanks with it as tanks are not creatures. It also states, "Any creatures within 1 metre x PR of the target will also be affected by Smite," which indicates it only affects creatures, not vehicles.

So, huzzah, your devestator is better at killing tanks than your smitey librarian.

And then the Libarian Pushes, targeting the Horde standing near the vehicle and hitting it as well.

Maybe the GM in the game where the Librarian smote 2 tanks at once needs to read more closely.



#14 borithan

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 04:49 AM

Well, the point he was trying to make was that the power only specifically mentions it affecting "creatures", so RAW, even if a vehicle is in the blast radius, it is not affected. Not sure if that was the intended effect though…



#15 Kshatriya

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 05:47 AM

borithan said:

Well, the point he was trying to make was that the power only specifically mentions it affecting "creatures", so RAW, even if a vehicle is in the blast radius, it is not affected. Not sure if that was the intended effect though…

That is a good point and one I intend to raise to the GM.



#16 herichimo

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:26 AM

Naviward said:

Kamikazzijoe said:

 

Since the group cant rely on the librarian's smite to help take out a tank, are there any rules to help cripple a vehicle or do more damage beyond just shooting it?  I didn't see anything about using an aim shot to hit a weak point or using demolitions well to increase your damage.  (I did notice that DH demolitions lets you increase the difficulty to up the damage)  Intentionally shooting out the treads is a time honored tradition.

 

 

 

Sadly as you say, their aren't any specific rules for this, above emperor's fury and then getting the a 1D5 crit result which might effect the speed of the tank (or lower the armour or so on).

A simple add-on would then be to allow a called shot against the tank, then if they crit you apply the crit result that makes the most sense for the location they called shot against rather than rolling.

Beyond that you'd have to make up your own rules. A demolitions check for grenades and rockets, common lore (tech or war) or tactics (armoured) would all make sense, then you could allow for crits on 9 or 10 with auto confirm or something like that. That way it's still not a certainty (you don't want the treads blown off every tank every fight after all).

Yes I agree, it is very sad the vehicle rules seem unfinished. It would be nice if vehicles had hit locations like a creature does, then you could called shot the tracks, and only hit the tracks. No need to risk blowing the whole vehicle up trying to do 'just' the right amount of damage to imobilize the darn thing. I've used the same called shot -crit affect to location called out rule myself, its a decent stopgap measure.



#17 herichimo

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 09:35 AM

Kshatriya said:

borithan said:

 

Well, the point he was trying to make was that the power only specifically mentions it affecting "creatures", so RAW, even if a vehicle is in the blast radius, it is not affected. Not sure if that was the intended effect though…

 

 

That is a good point and one I intend to raise to the GM.

Other powers specifically affect vehicles or "any target"

Machine curse, "… target a single vehicle (such as a battle tank or landspeeder) or a number of mechanical devices (such as guns or servitors)…

Might of ancients, doesn't specifically mention vehicles, but does increase your dam and pen on melee attacks (power fist anyone?)

Vortex of Doom, Anything that touches the vortex must take agilty test (vehicles fail, or does the driver take one?) or take damage, not designed with vehicles in mind as the rules weren't out yet, but should still work. Would need high PR to do enough damage to beat heavy armor though.

Blood Lance, anything hit, though the units hit get all their armor. Again not designed with vehicles in mind but possible to do damage anyways.

etc.

So there are options. Get your boyos using something other than smite all the time!!



#18 Nathiel

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Posted 20 July 2012 - 05:27 PM

I am liking what I see in the Only War beta for vehicle rules. They have hit locations and crit tables for the various locations. Among other things.






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