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#1 silesian

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 10:34 AM

One fine day I was generating a Storm Trooper as part of a Drop Troops Regiment when it hit me. I couldn't carry my standard loadout on the move without becoming fatigued after three hours of marching.

Given that the average Strength and Toughness bonuses for a character in Only War hover around the 3 range, you're looking at a maximum carrying capacity of 36kg in the beginning of a campaign. The problem is especially bad for anyone part of a Drop Troops Regiment (the grav-chute alone weighs 15kg), but also rapidly becomes a problem for Storm Troopers, as their specialist equipment weighs 31kg by itself (15kg Carapace, 16kg Hellgun plus backpack). Then you factor in the universal Guardsman loadout and you're way over the limit.

(For reference, from pg. 182 of the Inquisitor's Handbook, as these weights are missing from the Only War tables: the rucksack weighs 2kg, hostile weather gear weighs 2kg, the Primer weighs 0.3kg, the lamp pack weighs 1kg, the grooming kit weighs 0.1kg, the mess kit weighs 0.5 kg, the tool kit weighs 1kg, the blanket and sleep bag weigh 4kg, the entrenching tool weighs 2kg, the uniform weighs 3kg, and a pack of four sandbags or so weighs 5kg.)

Combat rations weigh 1kg each, so assuming you eat only once or twice a day that's 28kg in food alone, per guardsman, for your standard ration allotment.

I sure hope your regiment is mechanized!



#2 Woodclaw

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 12:34 PM

Thanks for highlighting this problem. I had similar issues in DH, especially with Hellgun. The simple idea of a weapon having a 5 Kg backpack as a standard 40-ish clip is terrible, evene worst considering that it is usually issued to drop troopers.



#3 Wilbry

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 05:22 PM

The average guardsman begins with 3 Strength and 3 Toughness but I am yet to see a player not bump up these stats (particularly Toughness) during character gen.

Assume a minimum of 7 gives 45 kg.  (this is only one characteristic bumped to 40)

My groups Reg Kit came to exactly 45kg. Special starting gear was extra. So if they pack sensibly (my guys carry around a full dress uniform) the average guards character should be fine. 45kg is also the average kit weight for a modern western soldier.

Also,

There is nothing wrong with a soldier making Toughness checks after 4 hours to avoid fatigue - it sounds quite sensible to me. Have you ever carried a squad support weapon for 4 hours of hiking? or even just the ammo for one? on top of your 40kg kit? There are very few people who can honestly say they feel fine after such a march.

 

Don't forget you can usually drop off your kit before going into combat, carrying only armour+ weapon+medical + ammo (the assault kit) so that you are no longer suffering the encumbered penalty to movement.

 

Also, 2 weeks rations is not 28kg in real life, or in any RPG I have ever played. Modern Combat Rations for 1 day weight a little over 1 kg (Australian Army)  and that provides 3 meals plus chocloates and coffee. So a reasonable weight you could assume for 2 weeks of 40K Guardsman rations would be 14kg.



#4 Varn

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 06:30 PM

I am of the opinion that the matter in which backpack ammo sources is handled currently (and in all previous iterations of 40K RPG) is pants on head retarded and makes no sense. From a Fluff standpoint it doesnt match up, and especialy from a crunch-wise standpoint it's just flat out stupid.



#5 Woodclaw

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:07 PM

Varn said:

I am of the opinion that the matter in which backpack ammo sources is handled currently (and in all previous iterations of 40K RPG) is pants on head retarded and makes no sense. From a Fluff standpoint it doesnt match up, and especialy from a crunch-wise standpoint it's just flat out stupid.

I agree completly, the backpack ammo is a good idea in theory, but it doesn't work all that well in game terms.

In an assault situation it might be a viable option to reduce the work of loaders and ammo carriers, but in any other situation no soldier/inquisitorial agent/whatever will ever exchange his full kit for a ton of extra ammos.



#6 silesian

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 11:12 PM

 

 

Wilbry said:

 

Also, 2 weeks rations is not 28kg in real life, or in any RPG I have ever played. Modern Combat Rations for 1 day weight a little over 1 kg (Australian Army)  and that provides 3 meals plus chocloates and coffee. So a reasonable weight you could assume for 2 weeks of 40K Guardsman rations would be 14kg.

 

 

Even if they were three meals in one (the description in the Inquisitor's Handbook describes them as a meal) that's still 14kg. Back up to 28kg if you're a Well-Provisioned regiment.

I'm not saying that having to deal with all that weight is a bad thing, it's just a consideration that doesn't really seem that highlighted in the text. If you're in a regiment without vehicles (Drop Troops, Light Infantry, Line Infantry, Siege Infantry), it's a really good idea to consider the weight of all those things you're going to be carrying. This is especially important when you look at the movement rates on Table 1-5 on page 11 of the beta: it assumes you're unencumbered. A warning sidebar might be a good idea.

For bonus reference the total weight of the universal loadout is 13.9kg before weapons, ammo and food. The knife is another 1kg, the flak vest is 5kg, the laspistol is 1.5kg (and its ammo packs weigh .15kg each). 21.7kg before rations. Assuming the conservative estimate of 14kg for two weeks of rations that puts you JUST under the limit of 36kg at 35.7kg. And that's before you get your specialist and regimental standard gear!

Varn said:

 

I am of the opinion that the matter in which backpack ammo sources is handled currently (and in all previous iterations of 40K RPG) is pants on head retarded and makes no sense. From a Fluff standpoint it doesnt match up, and especialy from a crunch-wise standpoint it's just flat out stupid.

 

 

A lot of people gripe about how the backpacks work and I'm one of them. For instance, I've seen a description of the actual tabletop Storm Trooper unit using a Hellgun that says the pack has easily two hundred shots in it. What gives?

Now if you read the beta closely, you can see that the backpack power supply doesn't actually have an ammo capacity listed, so most people assume it's just the clip size of the hotshot lasgun (30). If you trade up for the 25kg standard ammo backpack, you only get 50 more shots for a total of 80 with a las weapon. Now consider that a comparable standard boltgun (1d10+5 X Tearing Pen 5, which would arguably do more damage than the hotshot lasgun anyway) gets two hundred shots out of the standard backpack and you're left scratching your head wondering why las weapons get lumped in with the plasma and melta category. Was it just something they overlooked? The ammo backpack rules really need some looking over.

I'm of the opinion that when they wrote those rules they didn't even consider that the weapon's class (Heavy, Basic, Pistol) might change how much ammo is available from the backpack. Or whether or not you can use it with Launcher weapons (although there is a brief mention in Deathwatch about how one of the missile launchers has a little loader arm that can pull missiles out of an ammo pack). And it does say you can use it with any ranged weapon… so what about bows and slings? Muskets? The possibilities are endless.



#7 DJSunhammer

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:50 AM

I think the numbers for the backpack ammo supply are meant for heavy weapons, in which case 80 shots would be fine for the Lascannon. I do agree that it needs to be modified for basic weapons though. Perhaps double the ammo count when used with basic weapons.



#8 JuankiMan

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 01:10 AM

If you're worried about weight, remember that you're not forced to carry ALL of your regimental kit with you. Actually, doing so might be quite unreasonable, depending what it consists in (taking your dress uniform to battle seems a tad bit weird). Also, grav-chutes weigh 15kg, but you're not expected to lug it around for extended periods of time, just as paratroopers aren't expected to re-fold and retrieve their parachutes. I always assumed rations weighed 2kg/day because they included water, which makes the weight much more reasonable.  



#9 Andor

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 02:46 AM

If you're only drinking 1 kg of water a day you are a dead man. I don't care what your theater of operations is.

If your loadout leaves you fatigued then, welcome to the Army! Soldiers carry staggering loads into battle, and it's not a fatigue free endevour. Why do you think the army is paying millions to develop creepy robot pack mules? … Which is not a bad idea in OW come to think of it, can I get a servitor mule? Please?

If you think your sneaky git is too loaded down, talk the ogryn into carrying some of your share. He probably won't even notice. Or get into a mechanized regiment and leave your kit in the chimera.

But yeah, if the end of the day leaves the average soldier with a level or two of fatigue, then I call that verisimilitude.



#10 Woodclaw

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:12 AM

JuankiMan said:

If you're worried about weight, remember that you're not forced to carry ALL of your regimental kit with you. Actually, doing so might be quite unreasonable, depending what it consists in (taking your dress uniform to battle seems a tad bit weird). Also, grav-chutes weigh 15kg, but you're not expected to lug it around for extended periods of time, just as paratroopers aren't expected to re-fold and retrieve their parachutes. I always assumed rations weighed 2kg/day because they included water, which makes the weight much more reasonable.  

JuankiMan said:

If you're worried about weight, remember that you're not forced to carry ALL of your regimental kit with you. Actually, doing so might be quite unreasonable, depending what it consists in (taking your dress uniform to battle seems a tad bit weird). Also, grav-chutes weigh 15kg, but you're not expected to lug it around for extended periods of time, just as paratroopers aren't expected to re-fold and retrieve their parachutes. I always assumed rations weighed 2kg/day because they included water, which makes the weight much more reasonable.  

Not to be a shameless nitpicker (which I often am) but I think that you're mising a couple of points. The entire concept behind a military standard kit is to make it as portable as possible, certainly some items aren't meant to be in the kitbag all the time, but the bulk of it will be.

Just for the sake of argument a present day kit usually include:

  • Body Armor (at least 7 Kg, possibly more with insert plates)
  • A long weapon (assault rifle 3 to 4 Kg)
  • Clips of ammo (at least 6-7, 0.5 Kg each)
  • A Close combat weapon (0.5 Kg)
  • A Sidearm (0.8 Kg)
  • Clips for the sidearm (2-3, 0.1 Kg each)
  • Grenades (3 to 6, 0.4 Kg each)
  • Backpack
  • Mess kit
  • Bedroll
  • Rations excluding water (at least 0.3 Kg each meal)

Just for the record during the operations in Afghanistan the standard infantry loadout for a 3 days recon mission was 150 pounds per soldier, which means around 65-67 Kg.

Also a 2Kg ration surely doesn't include water. Water weights 1Kg per liter, a fully grown man drinks 2 to 4 liters a day depending on the outside temperature and climate. So a one day ration including water will weight at least 3 Kg. For this reason real world rations include (or included) tablets to purify water on the field.



#11 boooh

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:56 AM

Andor said:

If you're only drinking 1 kg of water a day you are a dead man. I don't care what your theater of operations is.

If your loadout leaves you fatigued then, welcome to the Army! Soldiers carry staggering loads into battle, and it's not a fatigue free endevour. Why do you think the army is paying millions to develop creepy robot pack mules? … Which is not a bad idea in OW come to think of it, can I get a servitor mule? Please?

If you think your sneaky git is too loaded down, talk the ogryn into carrying some of your share. He probably won't even notice. Or get into a mechanized regiment and leave your kit in the chimera.

But yeah, if the end of the day leaves the average soldier with a level or two of fatigue, then I call that verisimilitude.

 

Don´t forget, depending on terrain possible you don´t need to carry all the water with you when you use water purification pills and easy to carry filters

like these www.katadyn.com

so the overall weight for water could be cut down a lot

 



#12 Ravenstormchaser

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:18 AM

Woodclaw said:

JuankiMan said:

 

If you're worried about weight, remember that you're not forced to carry ALL of your regimental kit with you. Actually, doing so might be quite unreasonable, depending what it consists in (taking your dress uniform to battle seems a tad bit weird). Also, grav-chutes weigh 15kg, but you're not expected to lug it around for extended periods of time, just as paratroopers aren't expected to re-fold and retrieve their parachutes. I always assumed rations weighed 2kg/day because they included water, which makes the weight much more reasonable.  

 

 

JuankiMan said:

 

If you're worried about weight, remember that you're not forced to carry ALL of your regimental kit with you. Actually, doing so might be quite unreasonable, depending what it consists in (taking your dress uniform to battle seems a tad bit weird). Also, grav-chutes weigh 15kg, but you're not expected to lug it around for extended periods of time, just as paratroopers aren't expected to re-fold and retrieve their parachutes. I always assumed rations weighed 2kg/day because they included water, which makes the weight much more reasonable.  

 

 

Not to be a shameless nitpicker (which I often am) but I think that you're mising a couple of points. The entire concept behind a military standard kit is to make it as portable as possible, certainly some items aren't meant to be in the kitbag all the time, but the bulk of it will be.

Just for the sake of argument a present day kit usually include:

  • Body Armor (at least 7 Kg, possibly more with insert plates)
  • A long weapon (assault rifle 3 to 4 Kg)
  • Clips of ammo (at least 6-7, 0.5 Kg each)
  • A Close combat weapon (0.5 Kg)
  • A Sidearm (0.8 Kg)
  • Clips for the sidearm (2-3, 0.1 Kg each)
  • Grenades (3 to 6, 0.4 Kg each)
  • Backpack
  • Mess kit
  • Bedroll
  • Rations excluding water (at least 0.3 Kg each meal)

Just for the record during the operations in Afghanistan the standard infantry loadout for a 3 days recon mission was 150 pounds per soldier, which means around 65-67 Kg.

Also a 2Kg ration surely doesn't include water. Water weights 1Kg per liter, a fully grown man drinks 2 to 4 liters a day depending on the outside temperature and climate. So a one day ration including water will weight at least 3 Kg. For this reason real world rations include (or included) tablets to purify water on the field.

 

Ok two points here. First the Grav-chute…yes you actually are expected to lug that around. As it is an EXECUTABLE offence to abandon working  Imperial Equipment in the field to be stolen by Xenos. Add in the fact its tech and both the munitorium and the Tech-Priests are going to look damn hard at you if every time you drop you simply toss away a working example of imperial technology.

And Second; 65-67 KG… yes that sounds right. But that's just the issue here. Most Guardsmen cant carry that much weight. AT ALL. Your looking at 36Kg standard with 45Kg being the average with my group, Ogryn withstanding, and that's the problem. Most guardsmen are not only encumbered by the 36kg mark by the 60kg mark they are hitting their lifting limit. So unless the guardsmen in question have somehting else carrying their gear they just arnt carrying that much with them. And we are not talking "oh its fatigue levels every couple of hours" no we are talking your not taking it period by this point.

 

So yeah something needs to be changed with either the weights or the lifting weight table…



#13 KommissarK

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:33 AM

Its called always make sure to buy best craftsmanship armour at chargen, That makes standard drop troops quite manageable.

As far as Stormtroopers, I guess they just have to take the lascarbine over the hellgun if they're dropping, or be willing to remove the grav chute.

As to its an executable offence. Yeah, thats honestly a load of crap. It may be what the Munitorium puts in their book, but only the most rigid of units is going to enforce crap like that. Also, there may be an addendum in some book that we haven't seen that permits drop troops to remove their grav chutes. Perhaps they're expected to pick them back up later? Even a Commissar should understand that their duty is to maintain morale and inspire bravery in the units they are attached to, not to nitpick enforce every single rule of the Departmento Munitorium. Or are we playing a PVP enabled game, as I imagine most players would start to find new uses for their frag grenades.

If we were to play by Munitorium standards, all Guardsmen characters are to be flogged at the start of play because they're not able to show that they have 500 rounds worth of ammo on their person at any given moment. Even a siege infantry/well provisioned unit is going to have 8 charge packs in standard kit, 420 shots.



#14 Pappystein

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:46 AM

 

Ravenstormchaser said:

So yeah something needs to be changed with either the weights or the lifting weight table…

 

Actually I would say all three ?.
1) The Masses of some items we are expected to carry in combat are crazy. Missile launcher for 35kg (that is over 80lbs people,) Gravchute for 15kg (35lbs anyone.) HOWEVER I think many other items are too light. Eg Ammunition.

2)The Carry/Lift/Push chart is quite off in how the human body works. I would say only the LIFT/Push portions are close to accurate based upon a STR/Tough bonus system currently used. You can safely carry without being encumbered more than it is showing on the chart vs your LIFT mass (this assumes a person in reasonable good health like say, an Imperial Guard soldier.) However there is a simple solution to this. A Level 1 Talent can be added to the game called “Imperial Guard Trained” This grants you a +2 to your STR/Toughness bonus sum for the purpose of Carry load only. ALL existing Imperial Guard Specialties should have this granted. It should not be automatic during Character creation to allow for non-Imperial Guard characters to be made by the GM using the same basic structure. Likewise Clothing and Armor should not count their full weight to encumbrance. Higher grade items (Flack Armor, Carapace Armor and the like) should count maybe half their mass to encumbrance, whilst lower grade armor (Chain mail) should count 2/3rds their mass.

3) The Entirety of the Armory should be audited and special care should be taken to separate Imperial Guard weapons from those of Space Marines. And then it needs to be remembered that 1 kilogram weighs 2.205 pounds!

 

Pappystein

 



#15 KommissarK

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 04:51 AM

In the case of heavy weapons, this really is what comrades are for. They would be able to assist in carrying the item.



#16 Woodclaw

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 05:56 AM

Pappystein said:

 

Ravenstormchaser said:

 

So yeah something needs to be changed with either the weights or the lifting weight table…

 

 

 

Actually I would say all three ?.
1) The Masses of some items we are expected to carry in combat are crazy. Missile launcher for 35kg (that is over 80lbs people,) Gravchute for 15kg (35lbs anyone.) HOWEVER I think many other items are too light. Eg Ammunition.

2)The Carry/Lift/Push chart is quite off in how the human body works. I would say only the LIFT/Push portions are close to accurate based upon a STR/Tough bonus system currently used. You can safely carry without being encumbered more than it is showing on the chart vs your LIFT mass (this assumes a person in reasonable good health like say, an Imperial Guard soldier.) However there is a simple solution to this. A Level 1 Talent can be added to the game called “Imperial Guard Trained” This grants you a +2 to your STR/Toughness bonus sum for the purpose of Carry load only. ALL existing Imperial Guard Specialties should have this granted. It should not be automatic during Character creation to allow for non-Imperial Guard characters to be made by the GM using the same basic structure. Likewise Clothing and Armor should not count their full weight to encumbrance. Higher grade items (Flack Armor, Carapace Armor and the like) should count maybe half their mass to encumbrance, whilst lower grade armor (Chain mail) should count 2/3rds their mass.

3) The Entirety of the Armory should be audited and special care should be taken to separate Imperial Guard weapons from those of Space Marines. And then it needs to be remembered that 1 kilogram weighs 2.205 pounds!

 

Pappystein

 

Agreed. I got the feeling that some of the weights were estimated on a very weird scale (the proposed weight of an Astartes in DW is completely over the top).

Going by the above example of the Missile Laucher a rela world Stinger Launcher weights around 15 Kg and can hit a target up to 4.8 Km, while a SMAW weight around 8 Kg. Same with many other weapons whose weight is quite incosistent with the description.

About armor I disagree with making it weight less, the biggest problem with armor isn't the weight per se, but the fatigue. Armors aren't the best option in terms of transpiration and increment the fatigue. Even modern day armors are pretty bad, a 10 Kg Interceptor body armor weights fully on the shoulder, but it means running with a 10Kg backpack.

The idea of an IG Training talent/trait as coutermeasure for the weight problem is an interesting solution, which might actually work pretty well. Otherwise the introduction of hihg level combat webbings reducing the burder (like the US Marines MOLLE vest) can be implemented.



#17 MorioMortis

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 06:29 AM

Pappystein said:

 

Ravenstormchaser said:

 

So yeah something needs to be changed with either the weights or the lifting weight table…

 

 

 

Actually I would say all three ?.
1) The Masses of some items we are expected to carry in combat are crazy. Missile launcher for 35kg (that is over 80lbs people,) Gravchute for 15kg (35lbs anyone.) HOWEVER I think many other items are too light. Eg Ammunition.

Actually, the ammunition mass appears quite close to modern full magazine mass for all basic weapons (although some don't make sense as far as scaling is concerned, particularly the storm bolter, whose ammo weights almost half of the standard bolter one on a per round basis). The mass of the heavy weapons is ok if you consider the fact that they are usually deployed on wheeled carriages or with suspensors. However, some are simply too heavy, like the grenade launcher, which is more than twice the weight of the same thing in the real world, and the plasma and melta guns that weight around 40 lb.

Pappystein said:

2)The Carry/Lift/Push chart is quite off in how the human body works. I would say only the LIFT/Push portions are close to accurate based upon a STR/Tough bonus system currently used. You can safely carry without being encumbered more than it is showing on the chart vs your LIFT mass (this assumes a person in reasonable good health like say, an Imperial Guard soldier.) However there is a simple solution to this. A Level 1 Talent can be added to the game called “Imperial Guard Trained” This grants you a +2 to your STR/Toughness bonus sum for the purpose of Carry load only. ALL existing Imperial Guard Specialties should have this granted. It should not be automatic during Character creation to allow for non-Imperial Guard characters to be made by the GM using the same basic structure. Likewise Clothing and Armor should not count their full weight to encumbrance. Higher grade items (Flack Armor, Carapace Armor and the like) should count maybe half their mass to encumbrance, whilst lower grade armor (Chain mail) should count 2/3rds their mass.

I agree that the carrying capacity should be bumped, as an adolescent I routinely trained with around 25-30 kg on me without issues, and practiced unarmed fighting with around 15kg without an immense reduction in capabilities. Both of these cases include adequate distribution of weight, but so should you standard gear carrying equipment. I also agree that the weigh of armor should not fully count when worn (but I'd just place it at 1/2, chain and plate mail worn correctly have better weight distribution than most modern body armor), and that most primitive types should have their weights also reduced (gothic and maximilian plate had a mass of around 20 kg). Flak and Carapace appear to have a resonnable mass.


The stupid must be bashed upon the head with the Mallet of Wisdom until their heads are inflated with knowledge.

 

Words to live (and die) by : "I have officially Been out-rogue tradered!  As always, one must always assume that no matter how grand your plan is, it's never enough!" - RogalDorn1


#18 Morangias

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 07:42 AM

The way I handle it is, I don't track encumbrance at all. I have a gentlemen's agreement to keep it that way as long as they don't try to carry unreasonable amounts of stuff.

I know 40k is supposed to be grim and gritty, but tracking carried gear weight is such an outdated concept that we can't bring ourselves to do it.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#19 MorioMortis

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 05:11 PM

Morangias said:

The way I handle it is, I don't track encumbrance at all. I have a gentlemen's agreement to keep it that way as long as they don't try to carry unreasonable amounts of stuff.

I know 40k is supposed to be grim and gritty, but tracking carried gear weight is such an outdated concept that we can't bring ourselves to do it.

I do the same, but I still think that the rules need to be logical should they be needed. 

Furthermore, it's not like the 40k universe is exactly known for meticulous tracking of things like ammunition and carry weight, which seems to be rather proportionate to the badassery of the character in question rather than any physical characteristic.


The stupid must be bashed upon the head with the Mallet of Wisdom until their heads are inflated with knowledge.

 

Words to live (and die) by : "I have officially Been out-rogue tradered!  As always, one must always assume that no matter how grand your plan is, it's never enough!" - RogalDorn1


#20 Grubisha

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 10:36 PM

Stormtroopers never drop via Grav-chutes. They are deployed via Valkyre in aircav style… even in Drop Regiments…






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