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A Few Experimental Doctrine (Please Crit)


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#1 Magus Black

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:30 PM


Here are four Doctrines me and few guys came up with in our spare time and would like to know whether anyone considers them balanced or useful enough to ‘want’ to be listed in the final draft.

 


TRAINING DOCTRINES

Tech-Savvy
While the normal beliefs of the Adeptus Mechanicus priesthood is to keep the workings of the Omnissiah far from the minds of the ‘lesser’ minds of the Imperium, there are times when this belief must wavered. Perhaps the Priests of Mars have to take one too many casualties in wartime; or perhaps the only stratagem that will save a sub-sector relies on a greater knowledge of the Machine. Regardless of the reason it was saw fit that the ’unworthy’ minds of the Imperial Guard have been trained in one or more areas of the Machine God’s grand knowledge, bestowing upon them the ability to better understand the divine tools they use. Afterwards the awkward aftereffects of have an entire regiment with such knowledge settles across the minds of the remaining Priesthood (if indeed any are left at all), and though they believe that no ‘mere guardsman’ could ever truly understand the true workings of the Omnissiah, some guardsmen may eventually possess knowledge of the machine that rivals those of the Magos-level.

While many a tech-priest remain to observe these uncommon regiments, to prevent a full-blown tech-heresy, many still are willing to wipe out any such regiment. A task that they have made much harder by their own admission.

Cost: 4
Starting Aptitude: Intelligence
Starting Skill: Tech-Use
==

Keenly Aware
There are many places in the universe where the greatest danger comes not from enemy fire, but from natural hazards or violent wildlife. Most deathworlds and even some Imperial planets possess an environment that is so viciously hazardous that the only people that could survive for long are those that pay attention to detail and are always on the watch for danger. Even those that manage to avoid open-paranoia are seldom truly comfortable in any place that they haven’t personally secured themselves.

Cost: 4
Starting Aptitude: Perception
Starting Skill: Awareness
Starting Talents: Heightened Senses (any 1)
==

Favored Friend
The regiment has found a special sense of favor in one the many powers of the Imperium. Whether it the local Planetary Defense Force or even one of the famed Adeptus Astartes, the regiment has at least one friend in cold dark future ahead.

Cost: 1
Starting Talent: Peer (Any 1)
Special: This Doctrine can be taken again, either granting another group to be added to their Peers or by improving the first (increases the bonus from +10 to +20). If the regiment somehow manages to lose this positive influence on their chosen ally/allies they may select another group for this doctrine to apply (At GM Discretion).
==

Inquisitorial Support
For whatever reason the regiment is has either become a favored fighting force for an Inquisitor, or has been directly setup by one. While the regiment may (or may not) realize it, that they have been given a special kind of mission in the grand scheme of the Emperor’s Will…one they may soon come to regret.

Cost: 2
Stating Talents: Peer (Inquisition )
Starting Equipment: Add 20 points that the Regiment can spend when adding equipment to their Kits (using the table 2-6)



#2 HTMC

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:35 PM

Magus Black said:

 


Here are four Doctrines me and few guys came up with in our spare time and would like to know whether anyone considers them balanced or useful enough to ‘want’ to be listed in the final draft.

 


TRAINING DOCTRINES

Tech-Savvy
While the normal beliefs of the Adeptus Mechanicus priesthood is to keep the workings of the Omnissiah far from the minds of the ‘lesser’ minds of the Imperium, there are times when this belief must wavered. Perhaps the Priests of Mars have to take one too many casualties in wartime; or perhaps the only stratagem that will save a sub-sector relies on a greater knowledge of the Machine. Regardless of the reason it was saw fit that the ’unworthy’ minds of the Imperial Guard have been trained in one or more areas of the Machine God’s grand knowledge, bestowing upon them the ability to better understand the divine tools they use. Afterwards the awkward aftereffects of have an entire regiment with such knowledge settles across the minds of the remaining Priesthood (if indeed any are left at all), and though they believe that no ‘mere guardsman’ could ever truly understand the true workings of the Omnissiah, some guardsmen may eventually possess knowledge of the machine that rivals those of the Magos-level.

While many a tech-priest remain to observe these uncommon regiments, to prevent a full-blown tech-heresy, many still are willing to wipe out any such regiment. A task that they have made much harder by their own admission.

Cost: 4
Starting Aptitude: Intelligence
Starting Skill: Tech-Use
==

Keenly Aware
There are many places in the universe where the greatest danger comes not from enemy fire, but from natural hazards or violent wildlife. Most deathworlds and even some Imperial planets possess an environment that is so viciously hazardous that the only people that could survive for long are those that pay attention to detail and are always on the watch for danger. Even those that manage to avoid open-paranoia are seldom truly comfortable in any place that they haven’t personally secured themselves.

Cost: 4
Starting Aptitude: Perception
Starting Skill: Awareness
Starting Talents: Heightened Senses (any 1)
==

Favored Friend
The regiment has found a special sense of favor in one the many powers of the Imperium. Whether it the local Planetary Defense Force or even one of the famed Adeptus Astartes, the regiment has at least one friend in cold dark future ahead.

Cost: 1
Starting Talent: Peer (Any 1)
Special: This Doctrine can be taken again, either granting another group to be added to their Peers or by improving the first (increases the bonus from +10 to +20). If the regiment somehow manages to lose this positive influence on their chosen ally/allies they may select another group for this doctrine to apply (At GM Discretion).
==

Inquisitorial Support
For whatever reason the regiment is has either become a favored fighting force for an Inquisitor, or has been directly setup by one. While the regiment may (or may not) realize it, that they have been given a special kind of mission in the grand scheme of the Emperor’s Will…one they may soon come to regret.

Cost: 2
Stating Talents: Peer (Inquisition )
Starting Equipment: Add 20 points that the Regiment can spend when adding equipment to their Kits (using the table 2-6)

 

 

 

I don't like your Fluff description for Tech-savvy, but I like the option to buy Tech-use, and I'd probably lower the cost to 3. There is precedent for standard Guardsman just having Tech-use, after all: see Siege Infantry getting it base.

Keenly Aware I actually quite like as-is, since I don't feel like it's more overpowered than the Fieldcraft doctrine (although I may have to consider this further).

Favored Friend I'm a bit iffy on… I like the idea of people you've worked well with before, but extending it to groups such as Space Marines seems odd, it's a rare Space Marine that even acknowledges a Guardsman as worthy of noticing. I'm also not sure I like the ability to buy it twice to up the bonus. I think adding a restriction to any of the Imperial Armed Forces branches would solve this, since things like Navy seem perfectly reasonable. (Astartes are outside of the organized Imperial forces, technically, as are Mechanicus and Inqusition). 

Inquisitorial Support I'm also not a huge fan of, mainly because it seems very Dark-Heresy like (I assume by intention?). I like giving the option of buying more points for Regimental Standard Kit, but I personally wouldn't do that through invoking the Inquisition (after all, the vast majority of them have Inquisitorial Stormtroopers to call upon for that kind of thing). 

What actually would be cool that would fulfill the same role you're going for would be a Forge World origin option, which would explain why they're so much better equipped, but you'd have to think of some other bonuses to go along with it since Home Worlds grant quite a few things. 

Anyway, they're definitely interesting ideas, thanks for sharing :-D Hopefully the critique doesn't sound too harsh, since it's not meant at all to be.



#3 Woodclaw

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 12:46 PM

I haven't played around enough with the disciplines, but here' my 2 cents.

Tech Savvy

While I like the concept (I'm not a big fan of the the technology-as-magic style of some 40k products) I think that the flavor text is very problematic. By the looks of it a regiment with this doctrine might be accused of tech-heresy en-masse. Also I think it's a little too costly 3 points will be better.

Keenly Aware

Given that I consider Fieldcraft/Survivalist to be overpriced I think that this one is too. Aside from that I think it's a fine addition, even if a little generic.

Favored Friend

Not a good discipline at all. It's too generic for my taste. I like the thinking behind it, but I believe that it will be better to rework it a little.

Inquisitorial support

It looks like a special case of the former. Anyway I can see this as a good idea for a crossover game, but I'm not sure about a standard game.



#4 Magus Black

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 06:20 PM

HTMC said:


I don't like your Fluff description for Tech-savvy, but I like the option to buy Tech-use, and I'd probably lower the cost to 3. There is precedent for standard Guardsman just having Tech-use, after all: see Siege Infantry getting it base.

 

 

We figured that, when push-comes-to-shove, any large body of people that know how to use Imperial Technology well must have had some tutoring from the Tech-Priests; and they would need a rather dire reason for teaching (since they are elitist bastards).

For pricing we looked at the Die Hard Training Doctrine and compared it to the (now-dubbed) Survivalist and Sharpshooters Doctrines, and found that the cheapest one (Die Hard) only granted an Aptitude while the other two granted an Aptitude and either a level 1 Talent (Sharpshooter) or a special ability (the re-roll for Survivalist). Since this Doctrine gave both and Aptitude and a skill (a useful at that) we figured it was appropriate to cost it the same as Survivalist and Sharpshooter…should the choose to lower the cost of any of those then I’d say it be fair to be priced accordingly.

The irony of the Siege Infantry Regiment-type is that they are the only ones to get Tech-Use as a skill but have a -3 penalty to attribute that it runs on (Intelligence).

HTMC said:


Keenly Aware I actually quite like as-is, since I don't feel like it's more overpowered than the Fieldcraft doctrine (although I may have to consider this further).

 

Please do.

HTMC said:


Favored Friend I'm a bit iffy on… I like the idea of people you've worked well with before, but extending it to groups such as Space Marines seems odd, it's a rare Space Marine that even acknowledges a Guardsman as worthy of noticing. I'm also not sure I like the ability to buy it twice to up the bonus. I think adding a restriction to any of the Imperial Armed Forces branches would solve this, since things like Navy seem perfectly reasonable. (Astartes are outside of the organized Imperial forces, technically, as are Mechanicus and Inqusition).

 

Well honestly, in my personal opinion at least, I think that the Peer Talent is too broad as it would seem to imply that it works with the entire galaxy (regardless of the option you pick), and if I had it my way I would reword it so that it was more limited to sub-categories: like “Cadian Planetary Defense Force” or “Tanith First and Only”. But since I cant change that you should remember that its entirely possible to acquire this in game-play, never mind Space Marines you could have friends in the Officio Assassinorum, how exactly does one get ‘their’ respect I wonder…on second thought forget that, I’d rather not know.

While it does seem odd that you ‘could’ have friends in amongst the Space Marines its not such a radical idea when you look at it. The Space Wolves and Salamander’s are well known for their more benign attitude to the Guardsmen (and civilians and general) and then there are all-too-commonly-used Ultramarines that have control over a dozen planets. The guy who gave reason for Space Marines pointed that players may be a regiment from one of those worlds (with the story for being far from home, that they‘re supporting outer regions in need of their help), in cases like that both the Guards and Marines would likely have a much friendlier attitude towards each other.

Another reason for it that, as I’m sure you noticed. its only worth 1 point making it a very cheap and is at least useful to those that only have one point left in Regiment Building. The cheapness is another reason why I figured it could be taken twice, if the group wants to have either broader or deeper connections right from the get-go and don’t mind a rather being a rather ‘vanilla’ regiment I see no reason to stop them.

HTMC said:


Inquisitorial Support I'm also not a huge fan of, mainly because it seems very Dark-Heresy like (I assume by intention?). I like giving the option of buying more points for Regimental Standard Kit, but I personally wouldn't do that through invoking the Inquisition (after all, the vast majority of them have Inquisitorial Stormtroopers to call upon for that kind of thing).

 

Hnn Sort-of, the Ordo Malleus are generally the only ones with the Inquisitorial Stormtroopers at beck and call, and they most often serve and security personnel for the Inquisition than an unified army. There are a few Inquisitors that have their own armies (admittedly most of those are either radicals or the extreme left-wing) taken by various means that only Inquisitors can actually pull off; these regiments would be an example.

Perhaps they’re from a relatively stable and peaceful part of the Imperium and an Inquisitor is need of a lot skilled hands (and you what Inquisitors say about idle hands) so instead of letting an entire regiment sit there and fester decides to up the training exercises and give some extra gear so they’re ready for when he/she/it ships them off to Unknown Space to fight Tyranids on a Death World!

I was also thinking about changing it “Mysterious Backer” and making it more ambiguous with the actual provider being anything from a Planetary Governor, to the Inquisition, or the High Lords of Terra…or even something crazy like the Eldar or Tzeentch (trolling the universe again with one of his elaborate ‘plans’). As well as removing the Peer Talent, do you think that (along with a 1 point reduction in cost) would be better suited.


HTMC said:


What actually would be cool that would fulfill the same role you're going for would be a Forge World origin option, which would explain why they're so much better equipped, but you'd have to think of some other bonuses to go along with it since Home Worlds grant quite a few things.
Anyway, they're definitely interesting ideas, thanks for sharing :-D Hopefully the critique doesn't sound too harsh, since it's not meant at all to be.
 

 

I agree that there needs to be a Forge World option but some things should be available as Training or Equipment Doctrines, not everything should require you to ‘have’ to be from a certain Home World option.

And your crit is quite fair and doesn’t come off as harsh at all.

 

Woodclaw said:


I haven't played around enough with the disciplines, but here' my 2 cents.
Tech Savvy
While I like the concept (I'm not a big fan of the the technology-as-magic style of some 40k products) I think that the flavor text is very problematic. By the looks of it a regiment with this doctrine might be accused of tech-heresy en-masse. Also I think it's a little too costly 3 points will be better.

 

 

Looking at homeworlds we noticed that every option but the Schola Progenium has a penalty to it and that all of the Officer options have in-game downsides, so this plays to concept of Pros and Cons. Technically the Guard do commit tech-heresies all the time, they call them ‘jury-rigging’ and ‘personalization’ (read Weapon Customizations) if not for the fact that most Tech-Priests hardly interact with their regiment there would be a lot of conflict in the Guard. In this case (should there be some Tech-Priests still remaining) those Men of Mar’s have the solemn duty to ensure that there are no ‘relapses to the Dark Age’ and that the Omnissiah Divine Will is made known, they may even take new members from the Guard itself. In the latter case this may mean a more closer and friendlier relationship between Guard and Tech-Priest.

…and should the regiment be an example of the one’s with no Tech-Priest supervision, well that’s add an additional bit of depth to them game. A dangerous game of cat n` mouse with the Adeptus Mechanicus, think of the fun!

As I said above to HTMC considering the cost of the Die Hard, Survivalist (the old Fieldcraft) and Sharpshooter; 4 is fair for Aptitude and Skill.

Woodclaw said:


Keenly Aware
Given that I consider Fieldcraft/Survivalist to be overpriced I think that this one is too. Aside from that I think it's a fine addition, even if a little generic.

 

It may be, but unless they change the price for Survivalist (and probably Die Hard and Sharpshooter too), the price is fair. Though I’ll throw my helmet in your corner and go on to say that I hope they do reduce the price…at least by 1.


Woodclaw said:


Favored Friend
Not a good discipline at all. It's too generic for my taste. I like the thinking behind it, but I believe that it will be better to rework it a little.

 

What would you suggest for changes?


Woodclaw said:


Inquisitorial support
It looks like a special case of the former. Anyway I can see this as a good idea for a crossover game, but I'm not sure about a standard game.
 

 

It wouldn’t really require a cross per say a fair number of Guard regiments have found themselves caught in the Inquisition’s work even if they don’t know it. But as I’m thinking (more-so now) about changing it so that the benefactor is more mysterious (or at least in-game it is) and by also removing the Peer Talent.






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