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Costs and advantages of different regiment doctrines


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#1 Luther Engelsnot

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 11:47 AM


Maybe I am the only one, but I wanted to ask if somebody else also thinks that some of the trainings and special equipment doctrines are a bit off for the costs? Am I the only one with that issue? For example Augmetics and Demolitions, both grant the same bonus in different areas, one for explosives and special tank ammo, the other for bionics. But for no apparent reason Demolitions cost three points, Augmetics only two? Maybe that should be changed or buff Demolitions with granting Tech-Use so the unit can use the demolitions it can request easier?

Another example for me is warrior weapons, which is weaker that Hardened Fighters in my opinion, gives a drawback (losing your main weapon for a low-tech weapon) and cost three points, while Hardened Fighters only cost two. Close Combat Drill also only grants one talent and also costs two like Hardened Fighters, which gives a talent, a upgrade to your melee weapon and a bonus to WS.

Is my opinion off the track or do somebody else see it also this way? Or have other suggestions?


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#2 Alex Cube

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 12:40 AM

 You are absolutely right

equipment doctrines are way of the cost, and since my groups where specifically told to pick different regiments for their characters and NOONE of two groups picked an equipment doctrine I think that's not only my opinion. The reason why noone picked them was simple -- why to pick something that you can eventually buy "for free" (i mean not having to sacrifice anything for it) if you can pick something that cannot be obtained by any other means and gives very serious bonuses but costs the same??? equipment doctrines must cost less IMO

about "normal" doctrines -- prices for them and bonuses which they give should be tweaked a bit thats right but that's a deal of todays update I think, but what I would personally say about it is I would like to see more of them, more than that -- I would better prefer the RT starship construction type when you have a lot of points to spend and each choise is very cheap but each one of them gives you very small bonuses -- that would allow for greater customization and in my opinion cancel the oportunity of having unspent points



#3 Cifer

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 01:07 AM

Am I the only one with that issue? For example Augmetics and Demolitions, both grant the same bonus in different areas, one for explosives and special tank ammo, the other for bionics. But for no apparent reason Demolitions cost three points, Augmetics only two?

Because Demolitions gear and ammo are stuff you'll use up sooner rather than later. Augmetics are (hopefully) only bought once when your normal limbs fail. Thus, you'll gain the bonus from the demo doctrine more often than the augmetic one.

 

That being said, there is indeed a discrepancy between hardened fighters and warrior weapons.



#4 Luther Engelsnot

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 02:14 AM

@Alex Cube: Well than I am not the only one and yes trainings doctrines sometimes give advantages than can not be gain any other way it is therefore better. I am also not sure if Scavengers really is worth three points with the added drawback and if Well Provisioned is too dependent on the circumstances for the cost. It should be in today's weekly update, but I haven’t seen that much feedback on this topic, so we will see. But if the costs are lowered, maybe they should drop the three doctrines only rule? And more options would be really good, especially some small one point options.

@Cifer: It could be the case. But with Augmetics you can also get implants like cranial armour, MIU weapon interface, subskin armor and augur array a lot easier, which are all beneficial rather sooner than later, if the player wants. On the other hand special tank ammunition is only useful for one regiment type. Grenades and missiles are fine from the beginning, that is right. But when do you need other explosives if there are not already mission assignment gear? So yes maybe it is the reason for the cost difference, but I am not sure if it is appropriate.


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#5 Cifer

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 07:59 AM

@Cifer: It could be the case. But with Augmetics you can also get implants like cranial armour, MIU weapon interface, subskin armor and augur array a lot easier, which are all beneficial rather sooner than later, if the player wants. On the other hand special tank ammunition is only useful for one regiment type. Grenades and missiles are fine from the beginning, that is right. But when do you need other explosives if there are not already mission assignment gear? So yes maybe it is the reason for the cost difference, but I am not sure if it is appropriate.

As a player of several techpriests and hereteks, I agree that implants are quite helpful. However, you're still going to buy them only once. Once you've made the logistics test, you've got the implant and your +10 will never come into play again.

Also, other explosives are always useful as long as you can somehow lure enemies into an explosive-enhanced ambush.



#6 Luther Engelsnot

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:43 AM

Well bionic also have there uses till the end. You can always lose more limbs. ;) But I see your point that I could indeed be the reason. But as per the description of the doctrine they should also be trained to use them so it would be nice if everybody could use explosives better. Maybe giving Tech-Use for free is too good but they could lose the untrained penalty for the demolitions special use of Tech-Use. Well and the fact of Hardened Fighters and Warrior Weapons remain. But it seems as this concerns not that many people. Well we will see if they change something in this regard in the future.


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#7 Cifer

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 06:14 AM

Maybe giving Tech-Use for free is too good but they could lose the untrained penalty for the demolitions special use of Tech-Use.

That sounds like a good idea. Now that the skill costs have been lowered, it's not that big a problem anymore, but being able to demolish stuff untrained would still be nice for the first few sessions.



#8 Woodclaw

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Posted 12 July 2012 - 08:08 PM

I haven't played around enough with the Doctrines to gave a full commentary, but I tend to agree that there are cost issues. My personal problems:

  • Fieldcraft/Survivalist seem a bit overpriced for something that is limited to single type of terrain. Granted a regiment with this will most likely be fielded on their terrain of choice most of the time, but this is not always the case.
  • Either Recon or Hunter-Killers should be modified a little, both provides just vehicles and little more, which is quite inappropriate
  • Generally all the equipment doctrines doesn't work well, they are overpriced and it's unclear how they interact with the kit.


#9 Grubisha

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 12:24 AM

TBH there doesn't exist Hunter-Killer or Recconaissance Regiments per say in Imperial Guard organisation. I would rather name it Squad Doctrine or Squad Specialization because Hunter-Killers are actually vehicles of Fast Attack Company in some Infantry Regiments and Recconaissance are also Company or Platoon level sub-units attached to each Regiment.

On the other hand there are missing Heavy Infantry or Grenadiers as a regiment type but nontheless I would stick with Squad Specialization rather then Regiment Type.



#10 Luther Engelsnot

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 05:01 AM

Woodclaw said:

I haven't played around enough with the Doctrines to gave a full commentary, but I tend to agree that there are cost issues. My personal problems:

  • Fieldcraft/Survivalist seem a bit overpriced for something that is limited to single type of terrain. Granted a regiment with this will most likely be fielded on their terrain of choice most of the time, but this is not always the case.
  • Either Recon or Hunter-Killers should be modified a little, both provides just vehicles and little more, which is quite inappropriate
  • Generally all the equipment doctrines doesn't work well, they are overpriced and it's unclear how they interact with the kit.

What is unclear about how they interact with the kit? As far as I can see all equipment is added to the standard regiment kit and therefore always available. Or is there some other problem, which I did not see?


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#11 KommissarK

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Posted 13 July 2012 - 05:31 AM

Augmetics - when you acquire them, they are may not be "standard kit," but you're not going to lose them. I would say its worth 2 points, as its an excellent means of self improvement.

Chameleoline - The cloaks are standard kit, and if the regiment makes heavy use of snipers, or is otherwise stealthy/shooty, its worth 3 points

Combat Drugs - Slightly weaker, but useful if a medic is present, or fighting is particularly close quarters. The actual kit modification is a bit odd (not sure if you can restock up to 5 doses, and getting more is the requisition test, or if restocking itself takes a requisition). Debateably worth 2 points, good for those who don't want to mess with augmetics.

Demolitions - General bonus to getting explosives. Great for armoured companies who want to make use of the specialty ammo. Worth 3 points if you have a regiment type or players that use explosives.

Scavengers - Free logistics bonus to anything, with an annoying penalty (but aliviated by a crooked commissar who understands the necessity of taking what you find; its about winning wars, exitus acta probat). Generally worth 3 points, as +10 logistics to all tests overrides what demolitions and augmetics do (although don't ask how you scavenge for augmetics).

Warrior Weapons - Probably the worst, I don't want to defend it. Parry is about the only good thing, as its semi difficult for many to imrpove. The availability really should be improved by a step (players should be able to get their hands on chainswords with the doctrine). Only worth 3 points if the whole party is filled with masochists who want to find themselves in melee combat.

Well-Provisioned - More ammo is always good, but the real kicker is in the fine print. 2 more weeks worth of rations. Doubled rations. And +10 for vehicle maintainence checks that are logistics based. Rations = trade currency with other regiments. Then just get more of your own when it comes time to restock on standard kit. Also, the food helps to make sure you're not having to cook your boots for something to eat when the winter sets in and you're cut off from supply lines. If I had 3 points available after all else and mechanised infantry, I'd take it

I would certainly say Augmetics and Chameleoline are worth the points.

Scavengers and Well-Provisioned are possibly nice, but take some work to get the hang of why its useful. Well-provisioned is also very much dependent upon the regiment type (you need a vehicle, you need grenades, you need a main weapon that you're actually going to use the ammo from).

Combat Drugs and Demolitions I would say take a specialised campaign/level of group think. Either Armoured company/heavy gunner w/ mortar/missile launcher, OR a crazed close combat squad that shoot up on frenzon before charging.

And warrior weapons is just terribad.



#12 Andor

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 03:19 AM

I do wonder about warrior weapons. If you upped the possible range to include some thing better than a sword it would help. The author posted in another thread that he was trying to deny access to some of the 'good' low-tech weapons from Dark Heresy, but frankly if some idiot wants to give up his rifle for an explosive boomerang or sparky knife I say: More power to him, given that there is nothing in the entire 40k universe that sucks as hard as an unaltered human in close combat, so yeah, good luck with that.



#13 DJSunhammer

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Posted 14 July 2012 - 04:42 AM

Ratlings are worse :P

5 base wounds will do that to a body.



#14 silesian

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Posted 15 July 2012 - 01:57 PM

Hmm. In terms of regiment doctrines, it would be well worth going Imperial World (1) / Phlegmatic (1) to be able to afford Armored Regiment (4) and Scavengers (4). Hey, free tank and points to spare.

If you're thinking about "what do I get out of it" then the Infantry regiments are for you. Light infantry is neat for its emphasis on mobility (not many people take Sprint), Mechanized Infantry gets you a battle taxi to carry your stuff, while Siege Infantry is a standout for giving away a free respirator, more ammo than you know what to do with and free cover for prepared positions.

In the training doctrine segment, I'd take Die Hards every time. The additional aptitude for cheaper than the cost of Survivalist is just that good -- especially for characters who already have it. I'm surprised you don't get an additional perk like the actual Die Hard or Iron Jaw for the cost though. Close Order Drill is frankly better in every way than Favored Foe. For its cost, I'm honestly surprised Survivalist doesn't give you the Survival skill as a gimme--that special is at best just a gimmick in a galaxy full of planets that aren't as friendly. It's way too expensive for what you get (a survival suit in the regimental equipment selection is cheaper and probably better in the long run anyway). Hardened Fighters is great since most classes don't get a melee weapon better than a knife in their kits -- and what happens when you miss a logistics check or get cut off from the supply lines? Iron Discipline is only situationally useful (fight Chaos much?) but might be handy if you are worried about pinning and fear effects or losing Willpower due to a homeworld effect. Like Die Hards, I'm surprised you don't get the Iron Discipline talent with it. Sharpshooters is complicated. An aptitude's an aptitude. Deadeye Shot isn't really a must-have talent. The real value of Sharpshooters is in the equipment you can get because you have the doctrine: the Targeter. Mortars become your friends rather than your enemies. I'd say it's worth it, but you'd have to plan your squad around it.

Augmetics is really a waste of points, as the point at which you lose limbs is frequently the point your character dies. Chameoline is useful for recon (but not so useful that you can't ignore it, after all you have a sentinel or a chimera roaring around). Combat drugs assumes you have a medic or someone you can trust with all those drugs, but it's worth considering if you have points to spare, as getting those drugs in the regimental equipment list would cost you a lot of logistics points. If you're not an Armored Regiment, Demolitions and Well-Provisioned are not really worth it, as Chimeras/Sentinels are relatively easy to maintain and don't use special shells. Warrior Weapons is redundant given how good Hardened Fighters is. Scavengers is the jewel of the equipment doctrine list given how hard Logistics tests are in general. The best part is that the logistic test bonus isn't limited to a certain kind of item, so it in effect makes Augmetics, Demolitions, and Well-Provisioned look useless in comparison.

 



#15 KommissarK

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:21 AM

silesian said:

Augmetics is really a waste of points, as the point at which you lose limbs is frequently the point your character dies.  

Going to point out that the way RF now works makes it increasingly more likely to still be in the positive wounds range when losing limbs. Easy access to them (and of good quality) is useful. At least as useful as the other 2 point equipment doctrines. Also, easier access to any other implant (or at least the ability to request them as good quality without making the test more difficult than it normally would be).






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