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Snow graves + Forgotten shoggoth


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#1 bricks16

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 08:48 AM

 

 

i just wanted clarification when using these cards. the way i think it reads is that because of forgotten shoggoth cards never touch the graveyard so snow graves doesn't affect anything and cards will do to the deck instead of the grave.



#2 Hellfury

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 09:42 AM

bricks16 said:

the way i think it reads is that because of forgotten shoggoth cards never touch the graveyard so snow graves doesn't affect anything and cards will [g]o to the deck instead of the grave.

That is correct. Snow graves also doesn't affect the destroyed characters of the player who controls Infirmary either, as another example.



#3 Penfold

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 04:16 AM

 Hrm… without the word instead being used there is some weird stuff going on with Forgotten Shoggoth. It clearly, at least in my mind, prevents them from going to the discard pile, but if it isn't a replacement effect, I'm not sure what is going on in game terms. My guess was it should have been a replacement effect and should probably receive errata to say instead.



#4 Hellfury

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:19 AM

Penfold said:

It clearly, at least in my mind, prevents them from going to the discard pile, but if it isn't a replacement effect, I'm not sure what is going on in game terms.

I do not beleive it is a replacement effect nor do I beleive it is necessary for it to be one.

It is a passive effect and I think it is just a matter of timing.

Before Snow Graves can prevent a card from being removed from the discard pile for any reason, it must first be able to at least enter the discard pile.

If it does not enter the discard pile, then Snow Graves effect does not become relevant.

(2.3) Passive Effects
Passive effects are ongoing effects that
are not optional, unless otherwise stated.
Passive effects and abilities do not
have a trigger such as Action:, Forced
Response:, Response:, or Disrupt:.
Some passive effects have a specific time
that their effect will initiate
, this should
NOT be confused with them being
triggered effects.

-From the timing structure-
Passive abilities are “always on,” and
active whenever the circumstances of
their text would indicate. The main
difference between a passive ability and
a forced response is that a passive effect
cannot be canceled.

Snow Graves is always on, but Forgotten Shoggoth's ability initiates before the card even enters the discard pile. No errata necessary.



#5 dboeren

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:25 AM

I agree with Hellfury.  The card never actually makes it into the discard pile, because it's hijacked along the way there.  So, Snow Graves never becomes relevant.



#6 .Zephyr.

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:39 AM

 You cant react to said card being destroyed because of instead, right?



#7 dboeren

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:44 AM

You're speaking of Infirmary?  Correct, because it didn't actually get destroyed.



#8 Hellfury

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:47 AM

I do think it would have been more clear if it was a disrupt like Infirmary instead of a passive effect. Forgotten Shoggoth was an early card in the LCG design though. But the sum remains the same despite it being a passive effect as the initiation of passive effects are covered in the FAQ as well. Just in a more subtle way unfortunately.



#9 Hellfury

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:53 AM

.Zephyr. said:

You cant react to said card being destroyed because of instead, right?

You lost me again.

What is "said card"?

In order to know how you can or cannot react, under what circumstances is "said card" under when it is destroyed?

In other words, could you be more specific?



#10 .Zephyr.

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:07 AM

Already answered. I ment card that was destroyed but infirmary occured.

edit: hmm what i wrote didnt make sense, ill just read more



#11 Penfold

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 08:44 AM

 I understand the how and the why of it, I was referring to how it interacts with other cards from a a game terms perspective. An instead is a clear replacement effect, the very definition of it, and what this card does not not replace but redirects, so does it count as having been destroyed or sacrificed? I'd assume yes since that has to do with how the card leaves play not where it goes. That is all I'm trying to say, not being a replacement effect puts it in a different realm rules wise.



#12 Hellfury

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 09:20 AM

Penfold said:

I understand the how and the why of it, I was referring to how it interacts with other cards from a a game terms perspective. An instead is a clear replacement effect, the very definition of it, and what this card does not not replace but redirects, so does it count as having been destroyed or sacrificed? I'd assume yes since that has to do with how the card leaves play not where it goes. That is all I'm trying to say, not being a replacement effect puts it in a different realm rules wise.

 

Are we still talking about Forgotten Shoggoth (hereafter referred to as FS) and Snow Graves (SG)? I ask because you are referencing confusion about cards counting as destroyed or sacrificed and I am not seeing the relevance concerning the interaction between SG and FS.

My reading comprehension must suck today, as I am just not following and am trying to clarify.

 



#13 .Zephyr.

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 10:36 AM

I talk about Infirmary (sorry for confusion)

Penfold has good point of rewording Shogoth so that it is clear new effect substitutes going to discard pile. Now it looks like a replacement but card wording doesnt follow convention of using "instead" to point it out. Maybe because its Forgotten Lore so it might have really old wording style. And it can still be replacement and passive effect.

[edit:hmm ok now i get why disrupt would be better… with passive effect timing after effect is complete it's indeed wierd to change sth that already happened i guess this should apply in disrupt timing but be mandatory…, but can you make forced disrupt?]






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