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Moritat using a Power Sword


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#1 The Asgardian

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 10:42 AM

In the description of the Power Sword it appears as a normal sword until activated when crackles of lightning run across the blade (DH Core pg 140).

 

What would make the Moritat not want to use this sword since it is a bladed weapon which also has energy coursing across it?

 

-ashe-



#2 Nearyn

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:58 AM

I may have missed the point here, as I am very tired…

 

If the question is: "Would a moritat use a power-sword?" you can search these forums for awhile, since every concievable argument for why they would, and wouldn't, have been made, several times, in several threads.

 

My opinion is: Yes, a Moritat assassin would use a power-sword, without concerns or moral/spiritual backlash.

 

 

If the question is "What would make a Moritat not want to use a powersword?" the answer could be many things.

A belief that the sacred blade of the Moritat must not only be just a blade, but a blade of the simplest, most basic design.

If his pacemaker is adversely affected by the powerfield.

If the powersword, is actually a gun, cunningly disguised as a powersword.

… I have nothing. Personal reasons would be my answer.

 

Cheers.

 

-Nearyn


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#3 Cymbel

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 12:35 PM

FFG has said, "Moritat CAN use Powerswords, the key point is that it has a blade" (See Below). HOWEVER, the issue of whether or not they get tearing is up to the GM. Many lean towards toward only ones that deal R(ending) damage to get tearing, but there are also arguments for power weapons getting tearing. The key point is "Blades Okay" It is mainly the act of the slashing, which to Moritat is a holy ritual in of itself.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=99&efcid=3&efidt=240653&efpag=7

Hi everyone,

I just wanted to jump in and remind everyone that while it's perfectly fine to debate rules, don't let a friendly argument become personal attacks.

I also wanted to add a bit of clarification. The Moritat trains its operatives extensively in the use of bladed weapons—knives, swords, and the like. That is why they get tearing with them—they know how to precisely apply a blade to a living target in order to do the most damage. In addition, using other weapons (such as guns) is anathema to their training. Hence the Willpower Test.

Power weapons, however, occupy a bit of a grey area. A power sword certainly does not lack an 'edge.' It in many ways is a sword, and so the Moritat dogma does not proscribe it. A Moritat can use the weapon without making the Willpower Test—although traditionally the Cult encourages the 'traditional' bladed weapons, it recognizes that sometimes you simply need the most effective tool for the job.

However, power weapons do not get the Tearing quality. This is because although a power sword may fit with all the definitions of a sword in regards to Moritat dogma, it does not behave like a sword when carving through flesh. The power field on the sword (or knife, or axe) is what is doing all the work, violently disrupting flesh and bone and allowing a power weapon to cut through armour plating like a hot knife through butter (pardon the cliche). That very lack of 'subtlety' and precision, however, means a Moritat can't use a power weapon in the 'surgical' manner he or she uses standard edged weapons.

Or in other words, consider a master marksman. He goes to the shooting range with a semi-automatic pistol, and puts an entire clip into the bullseye of a target. Then, he reaches into his case and pulls out a 12-gauge shotgun loaded with buckshot, and shots the same target again. Did he hit the bullseye? Well, it's kind of hard to tell considering the entire target is now full of holes.

Hope this helps clear things up.

 



#4 The Asgardian

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:52 PM

Ok, thanks for the replies…

 

Have another question then, can Power Swords get the weapon customization Mono?

 

-ashe-



#5 MorganKeyes

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 04:11 PM

The Asgardian said:

Ok, thanks for the replies…

 

Have another question then, can Power Swords get the weapon customization Mono?

 

-ashe-

Working off the Only War rules, you can add it, but it only applies when the field is off.  I suppose one could rule that a high quality Power Weapon could be built with the ability to add the Mono quality, reflecting a more finely tuned field. Should be expensive as Hell though. 

Though I think I have to argue with Cymbel Power Swords being to blunt to take advantage of abilities like a Moritat to make a weapon Tearing.  Least IMO, the field is still narrowly focused on the blade. We see that bladed power weapons have better penetration than blunt ones. If anything, the Moritat would need to spend extra XP to get down the skill to apply/get over indoctrination for a Power Blade to apply Tearing like a conventional blade. 



#6 Cymbel

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 04:31 PM

I am not saying it is my personal stance, just it varies from GM to GM, some allow it, others don't. I posted one idea of a FFG staff member, which is interesting.

On the subject of mono, as per DH erratta, Weapons with a main "powered" mode, like shock swords or power swords, can be made mono. HOWEVER it ONLY applies when the field is OFF. The real question is thus, when you lathe a powerblade (or shock sword), what happens? Is it only BQ when off? (Personally I would say so, but that seems odd, the only reason I say so because of balance, if you can get a 25,000 blade for 5,000, that would be a bit…game breaking in some ways). And then shock swords become more complicated, as the field doesn't obscure the blade in any way, like a power field does to some extent. Also, higher pen power swords just sounds bad, they pretty much are VERY good at penetrating.



#7 MorganKeyes

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 04:49 PM

 Well yes, higher PEN Power Swords should be scary,…these are rare gems like Gaunt's blade and other relic items. Not saying to allow them to PCs willy-nilly, but as an idea for doing relic weapons. 

 



#8 Cymbel

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 05:16 PM

Well, those exist, but they are not a run of the mill powersword. They are something like force weapons, xenos tech, heretical and archeotech, which belong in their own category, not just adding together two upgrades which don't combine



#9 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 06:28 PM

 If you ask me, Moritat should benefit from Tearing when using power swords, otherwise they become obsolete once the party can afford their first chainsword. Why bother using a moritat when you can have a guy with a sniper rifle who keeps a chainsword as backup? Moritat are supposed to be melee specialists, and they suffer a pretty crippling drawback from the Bloody Edge. If they can't use a power weapon effectively, then a high level Moritat is essentially useless, unless they come across a daemon weapon or a xenotech artifact, both of which are heresy. Not to mention, they pay extra XP for what is otherwise a handicap. Moritat need all the help they can get.


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#10 Cymbel

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 07:13 PM

Which is a good argument for it, and besides, they are masters of moving the blade, you combine their skill that can make a NORMAL SWORD as devastating as a SWORD WHICH IS A CHAINSAW OF MONO KNIVES, think about a powersword in their hands.



#11 Clutch_Halthos

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 02:14 AM

I'll throw in my 0.02 thrones and offer some suggestions that i've been thinking of, as I now have a Moritat in my group and I will face this problem eventually. These could be talents, traits or elite advances. 

1: Allow the assassin to obtain the fleshrender talent from deathwatch. This will allow for an additional tearing die (so for a regular sword it's now rolling 3d10 instead of 2)

2: Allow the bloody edge trait to apply to all targets (deamons, machines etc…) instead of the strictly LIVING ones.

3: If the moritat is wielding an edged weapon, it gains the Proven weapon quality, with a proven rating of 4-5+. Maybe have the caveat that the bloody edge does not apply in this situation 



#12 Boss Gitsmasha

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 03:21 AM

Clutch_Halthos said:

I'll throw in my 0.02 thrones and offer some suggestions that i've been thinking of, as I now have a Moritat in my group and I will face this problem eventually. These could be talents, traits or elite advances. 

1: Allow the assassin to obtain the fleshrender talent from deathwatch. This will allow for an additional tearing die (so for a regular sword it's now rolling 3d10 instead of 2)

2: Allow the bloody edge trait to apply to all targets (deamons, machines etc…) instead of the strictly LIVING ones.

3: If the moritat is wielding an edged weapon, it gains the Proven weapon quality, with a proven rating of 4-5+. Maybe have the caveat that the bloody edge does not apply in this situation 

Fleshrender is in Black Crusade, so this doesn't seem so unreasonable. Roll 3 dice, pick the highest. Though I think it's intended to be used with chain weapons.

I'd say that Bloody Edge applies to daemons, since they bleed when you hit them. On the other hand, something like a Servitor or a Necron has the Machine trait, so not so much. Though if a DH party is fighting Necrons, they're probably screwed anyway.

Not sure what you mean when you say "the Bloody Edge does not apply in this situation".


"Oomans are pink an' soft, not tough an' green like da Boyz. Dey'z all da same size too, so dey'z always arguin' about who's in charge, 'cos dere's no way o' tellin' c'ept fer badges an' ooniforms an' fings. When one o' dem wants ta lord it over da uvvers, 'e says 'I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me', or 'I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good'. Da funny fing is, 'arf of 'em believe it an' da uvver 'arf don't, so 'e has ta hit 'em all anyway or run fer it. Wot a lot o' mukkin' about if yer asks me. An' while dey'z all arguin' wiv each uvver over who's da boss, da Orks can clobber da lot."


#13 Clutch_Halthos

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 05:12 AM

 Ahh well I dont have BC that explains why I didnt know it was in there .

I thought I read somewhere in these forums, among the many many Moritat threads, that Deamons were not considered "living". I personally happen to agree with you and will count them as acceptable targets in my game. I was just stating that for anyone who knows beter than me. 

And by "does not apply" I mean that they wouldn't get their tearing die. But now that i'm thinking about it, why shouldn't they? I mean if we say Moritats get tearing AND proven (4) on their non power weapons (or power weapons when the field is off)  that could make them pretty competitive right? 

 

and just as a side note of curiosity on my part, when a moritat rolls righteous fury (and confirms it) does the righteous fury also get tearing? I would think so. 



#14 Cymbel

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 07:14 AM

If looking for neat for Moritat stuff from BC

Blade Dancer: TWW (Melee), WS 40

Basically, if you have two balanced weapons in your hands (AKA swords), reduce the TWW penalty by 10 and with ambi it basically means you suffer no penalty for dual wielding.

I find this pretty cool and favors the Moritat using blades, price it at 200xp? Maybe 300?

Looking at Fleshrender, it requires chain weapon training, but then again, all it needs is a weapon that has tearing and tbh, the title sounds Moritat and the effect makes a normal sword far more effective in their hands, which is GOOD. This one would probably be more expensive, 300xp?

 

Edit: Proven AND other bonuses may be too much, the point is to make them competitive and better than other assassins/melee folks in melee. And yes, TECHNICALLY, daemons are not alive, but if I were GMing, I would still let them gain tearing against them.



#15 Clutch_Halthos

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 08:02 AM

 Both of these sound like good ideas and the right cost for them. But the next question is when would they become available to the assassin? Perhaps the blade dancer for 200xp might be at rank 4 and then fleshrender comes at either rank 5 or 6. Rank 6 being the rank when the assassin might choose to take the Reaper alternate rank. Personally i'd say rank 6 in the Reaper advance scheme. 



#16 Cymbel

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 08:39 AM

Exactly, blade dancer in rank 4 or 5, Fleshrender (being their major power boost) probably in reaper at rank 6



#17 Clutch_Halthos

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 08:55 AM

 Have we just solved the age old dilemma of "how to make the Moritat competitive with other characters late game"? I think we have. Or at least made a really decent solution to the problem.  Praise the Emperor!!!!



#18 Cymbel

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 03:40 PM

Seems that way, I wonder if the fleshrender and if they get tearing on powerswords stack and if so, then that MAY be pretty powerful



#19 Morangias

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 05:31 AM

Clutch_Halthos said:

 Have we just solved the age old dilemma of "how to make the Moritat competitive with other characters late game"? I think we have. Or at least made a really decent solution to the problem.  Praise the Emperor!!!!

Don't think so. I've seen all the solutions proposed here before, and probably even more than those. People won't stop bitching about it though.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#20 Cymbel

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Posted 11 July 2012 - 07:34 AM

What were other solutions posted?

And all you can really hope for is a nice buff which keeps their flavor and keeps them relevant at higher levels.






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