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#1 Nabikasu

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:23 PM

 I don't have much of a problem with the Priest, but I really would like to make a suggestion about its starting aptitudes.  Chiefly, I must wonder why the Priest doesn't have the Knowledge aptitude.  It starts with a number of Lore skills and its recommended advances also include more Lore skills (well, training in the ones it has anyway).  The Priest, also, is probably one of the few characters you can count on in the squad to actually know how to read, and more than that it seems like he would need to be receptive to certain types of knowledge in order to carry out his mission.  Though the 41st Millennium extols ignorance, the priest is the one person who should know about what's out there, such that he would know how to protect his flock's minds.

I would suggest simply adding it on, but the Priest already has 7 aptitudes, which is one higher than the baseline.  In such a case, I would recommend changing it out for Perception.  While Perception does fit a Priest (they need to be watchful for heresy), it is the least fitting of the Aptitudes, and I posit that Knowledge is more fitting than Perception.



#2 Nabikasu

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:28 PM

 Not to mention I see absolutely no Perception-based things on their recommended list of advancements, while again they have Lore skills recommended. :D  Just, you know, sayin'.



#3 Morangias

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 03:48 PM

Nabikasu said:

The Priest, also, is probably one of the few characters you can count on in the squad to actually know how to read

Everyone who knows a given language knows how to read and write it. Check p.82 of the rulebook.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#4 HTMC

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 04:32 PM

 I'll second what Morangias said.

 

Also, to play Devil's Advocate, a low-level member of the Ecclesiarchy is likely to be just as ignorant as a common IG soldier, but merely more dogmatic about his or her beliefs. Their primary goal is to extoll the belief in the Emperor and his strength, and knowledge of forbidden lore is far from necessary to achieve this goal. Ministorum Priests especially are almost more to arouse a religious fervor and lead the charge rather than be the scholarly monks you seem to be implying.

Actual knowledge of the sort you're talking about is the purview of the Inquisition and to a lesser degree the Astartes. Priests exist to parrot what the writings teach them, and the writings are the kind of knowledge common to the average Imperial-creed follower. I believe this is why the Ministorum Priest has the Fel, Leadership, and Social aptitudes rather than the knowledge, intelligence, and similar traits.  



#5 DJSunhammer

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 07:04 PM

Morangias said:

Nabikasu said:

 

The Priest, also, is probably one of the few characters you can count on in the squad to actually know how to read

 

 

Everyone who knows a given language knows how to read and write it. Check p.82 of the rulebook.

I was going to say that and decided not to…. But yes. It is safe to assume, and you probably should in most cases, that all guardsmen can at least read and write passably.



#6 Nabikasu

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 07:49 PM

 Okay, I concede the reading and writing part, I… honestly have no idea where that came into my brain.  I think perhaps I've been playing too much Warhammer Fantasy, or got confused by previous versions having a Literacy skill?  Whatever, that was a fail on my part!

As for Ministorum Priest vs. Ecclesiarchy, I also admit I'm not particularly knowledgeable about a lot of Warhammer fluff, so I probably further fail on that.

Additionally, I further admit it feels (to me) a lot like the Perception aptitude is just kinda thrown onto a lot of the classes, and therefore I'm kind of rebelling against it.  I mean, yeah, in general, who doesn't like being 'aware' of their surroundings, right?  It's never a bad thing.  But it feels hollow on a lot of classes.  When I think of a priest, just in general, I definitely don't associate it with 'perceptiveness'.

Meanwhile, I think my implications got out of hand, or I didn't consider them carefully enough.  My thought was less being a scholarly monk (or, that's not what I should have implied) but rather someone who is a cut above the usual ignorant masses.  They DO, after all, get three different Lore skills to begin with -- Common Lore (Ecclesiarchy), Forbidden Lore (Heresy), and Scholastic Lore (Imperial Creed).  This implies that they are indeed learned people, even if they aren't quite like, say, Adepts in Dark Heresy.

This is also why I didn't suggest giving them the Intelligence aptitude, because they don't strike me as scholarly sorts--but they are required to know more than the standard Guardsman, at least as it relates to religion.  After all, you couldn't properly stoke the zealous fires of rage in a Guardsman if you didn't know the right litanies, parables and other catechisms, right?  It's less 'intelligent, critical engagement of information' and more rote memorization of what's already there.

That alone seems more like what a Priest is akin to, at least to me.



#7 Morangias

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 10:16 PM

We're talking about direct servants of the organization which preaches ignorance as a a blessed virtue.

I'm sure there are scholars in the Ecclesiarchy, for various reasons. I'm sure they're not getting sent to preach on the front lines.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#8 LuciusT

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 01:20 AM

Morangias said:

We're talking about direct servants of the organization which preaches ignorance as a a blessed virtue.

I'm sure there are scholars in the Ecclesiarchy, for various reasons. I'm sure they're not getting sent to preach on the front lines.

Then when do the ones preaching on the front lines have Scholastic Lore (Imperial Creed)? I'm just sayin'



#9 Morangias

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:39 AM

LuciusT said:

Morangias said:

 

We're talking about direct servants of the organization which preaches ignorance as a a blessed virtue.

I'm sure there are scholars in the Ecclesiarchy, for various reasons. I'm sure they're not getting sent to preach on the front lines.

 

 

Then when do the ones preaching on the front lines have Scholastic Lore (Imperial Creed)? I'm just sayin'

Because they have to know what they're preaching - which doesn't automatically make them scholars. What they get at start is practically all the knowledge they need to perform their duties as frontline preachers - they know enough about their own Creed as to not accidentally preach some heresy, and they have some knowledge of heresy to recognize it if they see it.

There's a fundamental difference between being scholarly inclined and performing a job that requires a level of theoretical knowledge.


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.


#10 LuciusT

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:45 AM

Morangias said:

LuciusT said:

 

Then when do the ones preaching on the front lines have Scholastic Lore (Imperial Creed)? I'm just sayin'

 

 

Because they have to know what they're preaching - which doesn't automatically make them scholars. What they get at start is practically all the knowledge they need to perform their duties as frontline preachers - they know enough about their own Creed as to not accidentally preach some heresy, and they have some knowledge of heresy to recognize it if they see it.

There's a fundamental difference between being scholarly inclined and performing a job that requires a level of theoretical knowledge.

Then why don't they have Common Lore (Imperial Creed)? For what you are describing, it would make more sense. The fact that they have Scholastic Lore (Imperial Creed) implies that there is a level of scholariship involved beyond mearly knowing enough not to accidently preach heresy. Surely the fundamental difference between being scholarly inclined and performing a job that requires a level of theoretical knowledge is defined mechanically as the different between Common Lore (basic theoretical knowledge) and Scholastic Lore (scholarly inclination).



#11 Morangias

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 05:11 AM

Commissars start with SL (Tactica Imperialis). Does that mean they're scholarly inclined, or that they underwent a thorough, formalized education on imperial war doctrine?

Also, a comparison of Common and Scholastic Lore Skills in regards to Imperial Creed:

Common Lore: Knowledge of the rites, practices, and personages of the Imperial Cult, the most common observances, festivals, and holidays in honour of the Emperor.

Scholastic Lore: An understanding of the specific rituals and practices of the Ecclesiarchy, from the traditional construction of their temples to specific points from its texts. This information may be used to conduct the rituals for others.

Emphasis mine. Clearly CL (Imperial Creed) is the casual knowledge of the devout church-goer while SL (Imperial Creed) is exactly the kind of education priests get. Plus, the bolded part is actually necessary for the Priest to do his job.

It still doesn't mean IG priests are born and bred scholars. It just means their job requires some specific knowledge.

 


There is no truth in flesh, only betrayal.

There is no strenght in flesh, only weakness.
There is no constancy in flesh, only decay.
There is no certainty in flesh but death.





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