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Equipment Issue (“Nice gun, does it do anything?”)


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#1 Magus Black

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 09:40 AM

In the process of creating our Regiment we had stumbled onto a bit of cruel irony in the “Equipment Section”, one that kind of drew everything to a halt (My own snaky fault for pointing it out I guess).

 

The group had determined that the regiment would be a sort of fast, hard-hitting assault squad with lethal but short ranged weapons and decent armor. The Regiment-Type was chosen to be the Hunter-Killer which, equipment-wise, only gives the unit a vehicle (a sentinel walker or hellhound tank) leaving the infantry with a Hand-Held Flashlight and Cardboard-Shirt. Since this obviously doesn’t fit the image of our design we figured we could fix it in the Equipment Kit section and lo-and-behold we found we could do just that…sort of…

Unless there’s some errata somewhere stating that the bottom portion of choices can only be Wargear it seems to allow groups/GM’s to be able to take weapon and armour choices. We decided that the weapon of choice for the Regiment would be the Hot-shot Lasgun (for 15 points) and for armour the Light Carapace (also 15 points) which would allow give us exactly the kind of image we want.

And this is where I opened my fool-mouth and remarked that the rules specified that it only purchased 1 item and that unlike other las weapons the Hellgun required a Power Pack (A Rare, 15 point, investment) which in order to purchase would require points was far beyond the 30 point limit.

And as the title of the thread suggests we ended up with a regiment with a nice gun that didn’t have any ammo, and therefore is simply a fancy-looking stick!

So to cut to the chase my question is multifold:
“When you purchase a weapon to add into your Regiment Standard Kit does it also come with its proper ammo type as well?”

Alternatively

“Do you think that it should be changed so that any weapon added to your Regiment Standard Kit automatically comes with its ammo-type?”

And perhaps is there any Training or Equipment doctrines out yet that increase your points past the 30 point limit?



#2 Cifer

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 09:46 AM

The Regiment-Type was chosen to be the Hunter-Killer which, equipment-wise, only gives the unit a vehicle (a sentinel walker or hellhound tank) leaving the infantry with a Hand-Held Flashlight and Cardboard-Shirt.

While it's a medium to large leap in interpretation, I'm not sure about that single sentinel - the entry can be read to mean that you either get one hellhound per squad or everyone gets a sentinel. I mean, you already noted the tactics: Move in, smash stuff, get out. Why would there be any infantry in this scenario, especially considering that everyone gets Operate (Surface)? They'd just be liabilities that slow down the fragile sentinel or get left behind.

 

As to the actual question at hand… I think the bottom parts are not meant to be used as weapons or armour. The standard weapons for Imperial Guardsmen are the laspistol, lascarbine, lasgun and combat shotgun.

That being said, you can get your equipment choices - you just have to use the Storm Trooper specialty for most characters (probably everyone except for the vehicle operator and perhaps a Sarge).



#3 HTMC

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:33 AM

Cifer said:

The Regiment-Type was chosen to be the Hunter-Killer which, equipment-wise, only gives the unit a vehicle (a sentinel walker or hellhound tank) leaving the infantry with a Hand-Held Flashlight and Cardboard-Shirt.

While it's a medium to large leap in interpretation, I'm not sure about that single sentinel - the entry can be read to mean that you either get one hellhound per squad or everyone gets a sentinel. I mean, you already noted the tactics: Move in, smash stuff, get out. Why would there be any infantry in this scenario, especially considering that everyone gets Operate (Surface)? They'd just be liabilities that slow down the fragile sentinel or get left behind.

 

As to the actual question at hand… I think the bottom parts are not meant to be used as weapons or armour. The standard weapons for Imperial Guardsmen are the laspistol, lascarbine, lasgun and combat shotgun.

That being said, you can get your equipment choices - you just have to use the Storm Trooper specialty for most characters (probably everyone except for the vehicle operator and perhaps a Sarge).

I don't know how you got that interpretation, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong. To copy and paste: "One Sentinel Walker or one Hellhound Support Tank (or variant) per Squad." I'm not sure how you could "interpret" per squad to mean per person, but if I'm missing something let me know :-P. 

Also, the rules note that in a combat scenario vehicles are not moving at full speed, but rather at a combat pace to make sure they aren't ambushed, they aren't stepping on a minefield, etc. So in my mind while transiting normally it would not make sense to allies to be on foot next to a Sentinel, in a combat situation is makes perfect sense to have soldiers on foot assisting, even if it means they're sprinting from cover to cover frequently. 

 

To answer your question as well, as a GM I would allow weapons to be chosen using the bottom part of the chart, so a Hellgun for 15 points. I think the rules as written implies that you don't receive the ammo automatically, since as you see from, for instance, replacing a las-weapon with a shotgun, it explicitly mentions you get shells as well as the weapon itself. With that said, I do think it would make sense that if you purchase a weapon using this chart that it should automatically come with at least one or two magazines of ammo, and even if this went against the written rules (although I agree it's not entirely clear) I would probably house-rule to make it the case. I definitely think it could be clarified, if nothing else, so it's a good point to bring up!



#4 DJSunhammer

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:52 AM

Almost all regiment types get four reloads for the main weapon. Any weapon you get from the Additional Equipment table will replace its equivalent and its ammunition in the Regimental Standard gear. This would mean that getting a Hellgun would totally replace the standard Lasgun and its ammo. If the ammunition in question is a backpack power pack, go with that. I would personally just house rule the Hellgun and Hellpistol to use charge packs with the Clip size mentioned on the weapons table for each of those weapons.



#5 Frankie

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 12:00 PM

I think it's to be assumed that when you buy a weapon ingame or at reg-gen, it comes with AT LEAST 1 chargepack, possibly 1 spare.



#6 Cifer

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 01:10 PM

@HTMC

I don't know how you got that interpretation, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong. To copy and paste: "One Sentinel Walker or one Hellhound Support Tank (or variant) per Squad." I'm not sure how you could "interpret" per squad to mean per person, but if I'm missing something let me know :-P.

It all depends on how you read that sentence. It can either mean "[One Sentinel Walker or one Hellhound Support Tank] per Squad" or "[One Sentinel Walker] or [One Hellhound Support Tank per Squad]", with the Sentinel becoming one per person as with all other non-per-squad parts of kit.
As I said before: Everyone gets Operate (Surface), but only one gets to ride the Sentinel? And the infantry is slowing it down due to not even having a chimera when the whole unit is optimized towards speed and firepower? And despite what the TT usually tells us, there's just one sentinel despite them usually being fielded in packs? It just doesn't add up.



#7 Magus Black

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 02:20 PM

Sorry I figured the Flashlight and Cardboard joke would emphasis on my snaky exaggeration, guess I thought wrong.

I do know that its 1 sentinel walker or hellhound per squad and that its entirely possible for to make up an entire squad of those vehicles (it just means the infantry have no mechanized backup close by since they‘re being pooled into one group), but the majority (3 out 4) of the players are ground infantry with 1 Ace Pilot, so the fact that the Hunter-Killer Regiment doctrine is the only one that increases Ballistic skill but doesn’t even grant the Lascarbine seems pretty bonkers to us.

Its good to see that I’m not the only one a bit confused about the wording under the Equipment section.

Cifer said:


As to the actual question at hand… I think the bottom parts are not meant to be used as weapons or armour. The standard weapons for Imperial Guardsmen are the laspistol, lascarbine, lasgun and combat shotgun.
That being said, you can get your equipment choices - you just have to use the Storm Trooper specialty for most characters (probably everyone except for the vehicle operator and perhaps a Sarge).

If that is the case then they definitely need to clarify that clearly, as it stands no where under the Additional Equipment paragraphs is there any such restriction stated, and the bottom options make no differences of Wargear, Weapons or Armour (it pretty much just says “any 1 item of X availability“, baring GM Discretion of course).

As to second statement I have no problem with being a Storm Trooper, but one player is planning on being a commissar, another is planning lugging around meltagun and wants to have some decent armor (instead of just a flak jacket) and a decent gun to use so as to save on ammo for his melta (you know, for when a wall or tank needs to be wasted…or when you cant leave a body after shooting the commissar) and has to be a Heavy-Weapons Guy. Then there’s our Ace Pilot and ‘Scout Leader’ a Ratling with a 55 in both Perception and Fellowship the latter who’s pretty much the leader and major supplier of goods for the squad, neither care about the gun but they want the armor. So unfortunately that wont work.

HTMC said:


I think the rules as written implies that you don't receive the ammo automatically, since as you see from, for instance, replacing a las-weapon with a shotgun, it explicitly mentions you get shells as well as the weapon itself. With that said, I do think it would make sense that if you purchase a weapon using this chart that it should automatically come with at least one or two magazines of ammo, and even if this went against the written rules (although I agree it's not entirely clear) I would probably house-rule to make it the case. I definitely think it could be clarified, if nothing else, so it's a good point to bring up!

I thought as much as well, if you have to actually purchase the ammunition separately this would effectively double to cost of the weapon in many cases which is neither fair nor friendly.

DJSunhammer said:


Almost all regiment types get four reloads for the main weapon. Any weapon you get from the Additional Equipment table will replace its equivalent and its ammunition in the Regimental Standard gear. This would mean that getting a Hellgun would totally replace the standard Lasgun and its ammo. If the ammunition in question is a backpack power pack, go with that. I would personally just house rule the Hellgun and Hellpistol to use charge packs with the Clip size mentioned on the weapons table for each of those weapons.

The problem there is that the those bottom options don’t replace anything they just add to list so its (officially at least) not a simple switching out Main Weapons. Also the laspistols, lascarbines, and lasguns all use the same ammo-type: Charge packs. But Hellpistols and Hellguns specifically mention that they require Power Packs, and are not compatible with regular las-weaponry.

…Though I guess that is also something that needs to be clarified, as the Charge Packs say they are for ‘All Las weapons’ but considering on how cheap the ammo is its seems off that it provides even for weapons that say they require much stronger energy sources…good thing this is the Beta.



#8 HTMC

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 04:59 PM

Cifer said:

 

@HTMC

I don't know how you got that interpretation, but I'm pretty sure it's wrong. To copy and paste: "One Sentinel Walker or one Hellhound Support Tank (or variant) per Squad." I'm not sure how you could "interpret" per squad to mean per person, but if I'm missing something let me know :-P.

It all depends on how you read that sentence. It can either mean "[One Sentinel Walker or one Hellhound Support Tank] per Squad" or "[One Sentinel Walker] or [One Hellhound Support Tank per Squad]", with the Sentinel becoming one per person as with all other non-per-squad parts of kit.
As I said before: Everyone gets Operate (Surface), but only one gets to ride the Sentinel? And the infantry is slowing it down due to not even having a chimera when the whole unit is optimized towards speed and firepower? And despite what the TT usually tells us, there's just one sentinel despite them usually being fielded in packs? It just doesn't add up.

 

 

I still think the first reading is the only valid one, mainly because in situations where each player gets something, it's always made explicit; for instance, see the Armoured Regiment option, where it's explicit the vehicle is per squad and the items are per person. However, since you (and perhaps others) see it as ambiguous, it probably is something they should make more explicit.

I would explain that Operate (Surface) fact is that because the Regiment is accustomed to working with armored support, everyone is at least passingly familiar with how to operate the vehicle in an emergency situation (just like how in real life, if a driver was KIA someone else could jump in and drive the Humvee, even if they don't usually drive). 

In regards to the vehicles, if you look at the numbers it's not a problem. Sentinel Tactical Speed (so in combat) is 10m. Pretty much any PC (assuming at least 3 Ag Bonus) could easily keep up by running, and a relatively fast PC could almost keep up just by full-moving every turn (8m to 10m, for instance). So during narrative time, sure, there might be issues keeping up, but in combat (when it matters) it wouldn't be an issue. 

Finally, sure, Sentinel are sometimes fielded in packs, but there's plenty of precedent for them being used indepedently. Even the tabletop Codex gives you the option of fielding them solo, and in fluff I've seen times where they get split up in one vehicle per squad (I believe in some of the Cain books, although I may be mistaken). Also, the idea of one completely by itself is a bit off, considering the assumption behind all of this is the PCs are one squad out of at least dozens, so it's possible multiple squads usually operate together, resulting in a "Squad" of Sentinels with multiple squads of infantry support. 

I do know that Sentinels do often work in packs, and it's possible to have a squad of Sentinels with no infantry support. However, I think what the Core Rulebook is assuming is that not all of the PCs are going to want to be mounted: someone might choose to play an Ogryn, or a Heavy Weapons Specialist, for instance, and probably didn't come into the campaign wanting to be in a vehicle the entire time, and likely doesn't have the stats to do so anyway. The rules as written allow for this, so whoever wanted to be an Operator or drive a vehicle has one available, while the rest of the PCs do their own thing.

If all your PCs actually want to do a vehicular campaign with no foot-slogging, then it's easy to just house-rule the issue and give everyone a Sentinel and then run a Vehicle-campaign. But I suspect that the number of gaming groups that want to do this is very small, so the current rules make more sense for the broader context. 



#9 Cifer

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 10:27 PM

@MagusBlack

If that is the case then they definitely need to clarify that clearly, as it stands no where under the Additional Equipment paragraphs is there any such restriction stated, and the bottom options make no differences of Wargear, Weapons or Armour (it pretty much just says “any 1 item of X availability“, baring GM Discretion of course).

A clarification might be in order indeed. However, you already noted yourself that getting guns, ammo and armour by that table becomes expensive.

 

I thought as much as well, if you have to actually purchase the ammunition separately this would effectively double to cost of the weapon in many cases which is neither fair nor friendly.

You assume that it's intended for PCs to be able to get hellguns on the cheap. Right now, your group wants storm trooper equipment without paying for it by taking the storm trooper specialization while the game intends you to either take the spec or be content with your t-shirt and flashlight. You can get a way out of that easily - just allow yourself some more points. You want a high-powered game, just ignore the 30 points equipment budget and replace it with something you consider appropriate. No problem at all. But such a unit is not a usual guard regiment, meaning it's not supported by the standard regiment creation rules.

 

@HTMC

In regards to the vehicles, if you look at the numbers it's not a problem. Sentinel Tactical Speed (so in combat) is 10m. Pretty much any PC (assuming at least 3 Ag Bonus) could easily keep up by running, and a relatively fast PC could almost keep up just by full-moving every turn (8m to 10m, for instance). So during narrative time, sure, there might be issues keeping up, but in combat (when it matters) it wouldn't be an issue.

I was referring to narrative time. To quote the regiment description:

Being used as the linchpin units in many grand strategies,
hunter-killer units use light vehicles with deceptively heavy
firepower to linger behind the front lines until called upon,
then pushing forward quickly to strike down priority targets
in support of the rank-and-file.

I would assume the pushing forward until you've reached the combat zone happens in narrative time. If you're a commander, which would you rather have when the Ork Waaaarghboss rears his ugly head? Four sentinels that can be at his location within fifteen minutes and hammer him with multilasers while supported by the line infantry or one sentinel and a few infantrists taking almost an hour to reach him and then probably only bring one multilaser and a heavy weapon to bear?

The gear sported by Hunter-Killers (not even long-barrel flashlights!) IMO indicates they're not intended to leave their vehicles, which only works if they all have a vehicle to not leave in the first place.

 

I do know that Sentinels do often work in packs, and it's possible to have a squad of Sentinels with no infantry support. However, I think what the Core Rulebook is assuming is that not all of the PCs are going to want to be mounted: someone might choose to play an Ogryn, or a Heavy Weapons Specialist, for instance, and probably didn't come into the campaign wanting to be in a vehicle the entire time, and likely doesn't have the stats to do so anyway. The rules as written allow for this, so whoever wanted to be an Operator or drive a vehicle has one available, while the rest of the PCs do their own thing.

If all your PCs actually want to do a vehicular campaign with no foot-slogging, then it's easy to just house-rule the issue and give everyone a Sentinel and then run a Vehicle-campaign. But I suspect that the number of gaming groups that want to do this is very small, so the current rules make more sense for the broader context.

The existence of Armoured Regiments (and their inclusion in the starting adventure) already proves FFG assumes some people want to go for vehicles only.
Additionally, there's already a regiment type for people wanting one Sentinel and some infantry: The Reconaissance Regiment. There, the infantrists are at least getting some gear of their own.
On the other hand side, there is currently no regiment for people that want more than one vehicle. So, talking about everyone being represented…

 

That being said, I've re-read the equipment descriptions and it appears you are correct in that every instance of an item being given to everyone says so. I think I'll open a thread about this issue somewhen later this day.



#10 MorioMortis

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 03:57 AM

I'd say that the written rules clearly indicate that the Sentinel is 1 per Squad (note the lack of per Player Character like the anointed maintenance kit in Armoured Regiment), although the rest of the gear from the regiment makes this quite difficult. Therefore, I think giving everyone a Sentinel is a better option, even if the rules don't explicitly say so.

On the question of equipment purchased with the 30 points, they definitely allow at least armor (looking at the Vostroyan Firstborns), and therefore, most likely any piece of gear. As such, it should be perfectly acceptable to select hellguns, and, following the standard, to give it 4 clips as it is a primary weapon. To not include any ammunition would be like saying that the Heavy Weapons guy and the Specialist don't get any ammunition for their special weapons because it isn't mentioned in the starting gear.


The stupid must be bashed upon the head with the Mallet of Wisdom until their heads are inflated with knowledge.

 

Words to live (and die) by : "I have officially Been out-rogue tradered!  As always, one must always assume that no matter how grand your plan is, it's never enough!" - RogalDorn1


#11 HTMC

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:01 AM

@Cifer:

I was referring to narrative time. To quote the regiment description:

Being used as the linchpin units in many grand strategies,
hunter-killer units use light vehicles with deceptively heavy
firepower to linger behind the front lines until called upon,
then pushing forward quickly to strike down priority targets
in support of the rank-and-file.

I would assume the pushing forward until you've reached the combat zone happens in narrative time. If you're a commander, which would you rather have when the Ork Waaaarghboss rears his ugly head? Four sentinels that can be at his location within fifteen minutes and hammer him with multilasers while supported by the line infantry or one sentinel and a few infantrists taking almost an hour to reach him and then probably only bring one multilaser and a heavy weapon to bear?

The gear sported by Hunter-Killers (not even long-barrel flashlights!) IMO indicates they're not intended to leave their vehicles, which only works if they all have a vehicle to not leave in the first place.

 

Ok, if you were referring to narrative time that makes sense. I'll admit that when I read "push forward" I imagined the distance they were traveling would be very short, likely a matter of minutes even by foot, given they're suppose to be rapid response. However, the definition of "short distance" could be very variable, and I could see how we both read the same passage and came away with very different ideas. 

 

The existence of Armoured Regiments (and their inclusion in the starting adventure) already proves FFG assumes some people want to go for vehicles only.
Additionally, there's already a regiment type for people wanting one Sentinel and some infantry: The Reconaissance Regiment. There, the infantrists are at least getting some gear of their own.
On the other hand side, there is currently no regiment for people that want more than one vehicle. So, talking about everyone being represented…

 

I will admit I had overlooked the Recon regiment, so thank you for pointing that out. I feel like the issue comes down to carrying capacity and firepower, honestly. In the case of the Armoured Regiment, even though it's one vehicle, up to 6 characters can be active within the vehicle at a given moment, and assuming an average RPG group of 4-6 PCs this works perfectly (Ignoring Comrades, I suppose). Similarly, a Hellhound can carry up to 3, whereas the Sentinel only carries 1. The Chimera of course allows almost everyone to be active while in the vehicle, even if it's just pointing their lasguns out holes and shooting.

Thus, despite being the same regiment-type, the choice of vehicle changes the number of PCs involved with the vehicle quite a lot. You could balance this out by giving 3 Sentinels or 1 Hellhound, I suppose, which kind of makes sense since every Sentinel only gives you one heavy weapon, whereas the Hellhound gives you 3 heavy weapons on its own (Inferno cannon, Hull and Pintle heavy weapons). In fact, when viewed in this light, Hellhound seems like the obvious choice over the single Sentinel. 

So with this in mind, I think you've convinced me that the vehicle options for regiments might need to be looked over and possibly re-worked. If nothing else, I think a "GM's Advice" type box should be added specifically addressing the possibility of running a vehicle-only campaign, since as you point out there is very definitely demand for that. 



#12 Magus Black

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 07:28 PM

Cifer said:


A clarification might be in order indeed. However, you already noted yourself that getting guns, ammo and armour by that table becomes expensive.

 

 

If that’s the ‘only’ way to get some things then price is not such a huge obstacle, unless the pricing is wrong or the concept far too expensive, in which case the players/GM will need to rethink what they really want.

Cifer said:


You assume that it's intended for PCs to be able to get hellguns on the cheap. Right now, your group wants storm trooper equipment without paying for it by taking the storm trooper specialization while the game intends you to either take the spec or be content with your t-shirt and flashlight. You can get a way out of that easily - just allow yourself some more points. You want a high-powered game, just ignore the 30 points equipment budget and replace it with something you consider appropriate. No problem at all. But such a unit is not a usual guard regiment, meaning it's not supported by the standard regiment creation rules.

 

I wouldn’t call 15 of 30 ‘cheap’ its half of your spending for equipment. Also it is to note Storm Trooper Carapace Armour is different than Light Carapace (By one level of availability and AR…though strangely they weigh the same) and both it and the Hellgun are automatically at Good quality for acutal Storm Troopers, which would add 10 points to the cost (baring having to pay for ammo) to making purchasing both ‘Good’ Storm Trooper Armour and Hellgun at 45 points…and we already know that’s beyond impossible as written which is why he deal more in ’Common’ quality gear.

While we could houserule it so that we have more points to spend in the equipment section but we could prefer that it be possible without such things. If there is a Equipment Doctrine in the final product that allows a Regiment to increase the maximum we will take it regardless of the issue of guns/ammo but we would like to do everything legit.

You mention ‘usual’ Imperial Guard but there’s no really such a thing, every planet sets up their Guard Regiment differently both in training and equipment. Some Regiments are hastefully put together where there might be 1 lasgun for every 10 men and all of them have barley any training at all, who rely on simply ridiculously large numbers of infantry to win. Then there are regiments that are slowly, carefully put together with the best in training and equipment available, that rely on a combination of skill and heavy-duty weapons to win the day. There are not very many regiments that could be said to be in the ‘middle ground’ even the Cadian’s, the poster boys of the Imperium, are not a real ‘middle ground’ as they are ‘Very Highly Trained’ with ‘Average Equipment’.

If the rules for creating for a regiment only allow minimal customization overall then that jips the Guard who are by lore the army in the Imperium with the most variations…and it also hurts character creation in the long run. So I hope that not their intentions, after all haven’t the Imperial Guard suffered enough indignities Games Workshop! *shakes fist*






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