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Triggered Effects


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#1 Honest

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 12:40 PM

Hey Guys,

I just want to clarify what constitutes a triggered effect? Is playing an event a triggered effect, and can you use responses that prevent triggered effects to cancel the effects of events?

Many thanks!

Honest

 



#2 Ratatoskr

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 05:57 PM

Basically, a triggered effect is any effect that is triggered by player choice. You can regognize them easily: all effects prefaced by boldfaced text are triggered effects. They're either Responses (prefaced by Response:) or player actions (prefaced by the phase they can be triggered in, like Plot:, Marshalling:, Challenges: or Any Phase:). Events are always triggered effects. Remember that you can only trigger effects on cards you control (unless otherwise specified).



#3 Honest

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 10:53 PM

Thanks for the clarification, much appreciated!

Honest



#4 ktom

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 02:34 AM

One caveat: remember the difference between "triggered effect" and "triggered ability." Rat's definition of "triggered effect" is just fine, but when the card is already in-play when the effect is triggered, that "triggered effect" is also considered a "triggered ability."

Event cards, while triggered effects, are always triggered while the card is not in play. So they are never "triggered abilities." If a card says to cancel the effects of an ability just triggered, it cannot be used against event cards.



#5 Honest

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:11 AM

Thanks Ktom, but you've just confused me even more!

 



#6 ktom

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 11:31 AM

Honest said:

Thanks Ktom, but you've just confused me even more!
Well, it's an important concept in the game, so you need to learn it sooner or later.

As Rat said, the term "triggered effect" means anything that a player decides to use. That is, it only happens because a player chooses for it to happen. You recognize them because they have a bold timing word (like "Any Phase," "Marshaling," "Challenges," or "Response") on them. All such effects only happen if a player wants them to happen. They are "triggered effects."

Now, cards that have effects with such bold timing words can be found in one of two places: in-play (that is, on the table in front of you where everyone can see it), or out-of-play (that is, in a player's hand, deck, dead pile, discard pile, or Shadows area). For example, an event card will be in your hand when you decide to use its "Any Phase," "Marshaling," "Response," etc. triggered effect. But when you look at location like all Narrow Sea with its "Marshaling: kneel and discard to lower the cost of the next character you play…" effect or a character like Robb Stark with his "Response: after you win a military challenge…" effect, the card must be in-play before you can choose to use its triggered effect. You can't, for example, win a military challenge, then show your opponent the copy of Robb in your hand or discard pile and use the Response to kill one of his characters.

With me so far? Some triggered effects can be used if the card is in your hand, discard pile, etc. - but others (primarily the ones on characters, locations, and attachments, although there are some exceptions) can only be used if they are in-play.

Well, the ones that can only be used if they are in-play carry the additional designation of "triggered ability." So, just like all skyscrapers are buildings but not all buildings are also skyscrapers, all triggered abilities are triggered effects but not all triggered effects are also triggered abilities. The difference is whether the card must already be in-play before the triggered effect can be used.

 

The distinction is important because some cards will say "cancel a triggered effect" - meaning it can cancel anything with a bold timing word - but others will say "cancel a triggered ability" - meaning that it can only cancel things with bold timing words that were used while the card is in-play.



#7 Honest

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 02:46 PM

Got it, thanks.

I appreciate you taking the time

Honest



#8 Érikson

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 02:13 AM

And what about cancelling a triggered effect? Do we cancel everything after the bold text, or is there any other rules to follow?

I'm asking because of the "The painted table/Varamyr Sixskins" combo. It seems that you cancel only the effect following paying the cost of the triggered ability (as explain there). I'm a bit confused.

Thanks.



#9 Ratatoskr

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 03:20 AM

Érikson said:

And what about cancelling a triggered effect? Do we cancel everything after the bold text, or is there any other rules to follow?

I'm asking because of the "The painted table/Varamyr Sixskins" combo. It seems that you cancel only the effect following paying the cost of the triggered ability (as explain there). I'm a bit confused.

Thanks.

Painted Table (as well as other similar cancels) cancels only effects. Costs are not effects. When the formula "Do X to do Y" is used, X are the costs, Y are the effects. Only the effects are cancelled, all costs remain paid. If you play Red Vengeance and I cancel it with The Hand's Judgement, the 2 Influence you knelt to pay for RV reamin knelt. If you play To Be a Dragon and I cancel it, only the recursion part is cancelled, the character that stood to pay for the effect remains standing.

The way Varamyr is worded, putting a creature into play is the cost, returning him to hand and discarding the creature at the end of the phase are the effects of his character ability.

An even better combo than with Varamyr is with Bloodrider. You trigger Varamyr and put a fat Dragon into play as a cost, then you kneel two Influence and put Bloodrider into play to cancel Varamyr. End result: You have Bloodrider, Varamyr and the Dragon in play and get to keep them, all for the cost of two INF. Nice, huh?



#10 Robby Stark

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:10 AM

ktom said:

As Rat said, the term "triggered effect" means anything that a player decides to use. That is, it only happens because a player chooses for it to happen. 

so deadly is not a triggered effect because the player does not choose to trigger it, it ''triggers'' on its own. what about stealth and ambush?



#11 Robby Stark

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:11 AM

vigilant, vengeful and boat icon while we're at it.



#12 ktom

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:43 AM

Robby Stark said:

so deadly is not a triggered effect because the player does not choose to trigger it, it ''triggers'' on its own. what about stealth and ambush?
Deadly initiates on its own, whether you want it to or not. So it is not a "triggered effect." It is passive.

Stealth, vengeful, and vigilant are technically passive. They will initiate whether any player wants them to or not. There is a bit of a loophole, though, in that once it initiates, it resolves by the player choosing which characters to bypass or stand - and the player can decide to choose "no characters." But the fact that you can choose "no character" during resolution does not change the fact that the effect has initiated and you must make that choice - hence the "passive" designation for these effects.

Ambush is a triggered effect (specifically, it's definition in the rules tells you to resolve it as an "Any Phase:" effect). It only happens if the Targ player wants to put the character into play (and has the influence to pay the cost). If Ambush was passive, the Targ player would have to kneel the influence and put the card into play, whether they wanted to or not. However, Ambush is still a keyword, and the FAQ tells us that keywords cannot be canceled, so even if you do have a "cancel a triggered effect" card, you cannot use it against Ambush.

The Naval enhancement is similar. It only works when a player uses a player action to consciously put the character into the current challenge. No player has to use any particular Naval enhancement. However, the rules define the use of the Naval enhancement as a "game mechanic," not a card effect. Therefore, it is a "triggered mechanic," not a "triggered effect." So again, while use of the Naval enhancement is "triggered," it cannot be canceled by anything that says "cancel a triggered effect" (since it is not a card effect) any more than you can use a "cancel a triggered effect" to stop someone from playing a card during their turn as active player in Marshalling. 



#13 Ratatoskr

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:58 AM

ktom said:

Stealth, vengeful, and vigilant are technically passive.

To be extremely nitpicky (well, it is a Rules Board tradition, no? complice), Stealth is not a passive, technically or otherwise, it's a Framework Event that resolves in step 3 of the Action Window, not in step 4, is it not?



#14 ktom

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 05:48 AM

Ratatoskr said:

To be extremely nitpicky (well, it is a Rules Board tradition, no? complice), Stealth is not a passive, technically or otherwise, it's a Framework Event that resolves in step 3 of the Action Window, not in step 4, is it not?
Don't limit your definition of "passive effect" to "resolves in Step 4." A lot of them don't, or at least don't have to. A lot of them happen within Responses, for example ("technically" Step 5, right?).

Stealth is a card effect, right? The initiation of that framework event is only successful if there is an attacker with Stealth. Well, card effects are either continuous, passive, or triggered. Timing is not part of the definition of a passive card effect, beyond the fact that passives initiate "when applicable." The fact that "when applicable" is specifically defined by a framework event instead of generally by "Step 4" doesn't change the definition of the effect.

Stealth is a card effect that initiates/resolves whether any player wants it to or not at an applicable time (defined by the timing structure rather than the card's specific play restrictions). That makes it passive.



#15 Ratatoskr

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 02:39 AM

ktom said:

Ratatoskr said:

To be extremely nitpicky (well, it is a Rules Board tradition, no? complice), Stealth is not a passive, technically or otherwise, it's a Framework Event that resolves in step 3 of the Action Window, not in step 4, is it not?

Don't limit your definition of "passive effect" to "resolves in Step 4." A lot of them don't, or at least don't have to. A lot of them happen within Responses, for example ("technically" Step 5, right?).

 

Stealth is a card effect, right? The initiation of that framework event is only successful if there is an attacker with Stealth. Well, card effects are either continuous, passive, or triggered. Timing is not part of the definition of a passive card effect, beyond the fact that passives initiate "when applicable." The fact that "when applicable" is specifically defined by a framework event instead of generally by "Step 4" doesn't change the definition of the effect.

Stealth is a card effect that initiates/resolves whether any player wants it to or not at an applicable time (defined by the timing structure rather than the card's specific play restrictions). That makes it passive.

Thank you very much for this. Clear and concise and utterly convincing. So that's the reason "When revealed…" passives can both resolve as a framework event and be considered passive effects. I always thought there was an inconsistency in the FAQ, but looking at it that way it bceomes clear.

For the record, I didn't think passives could only resolve in step 4, but I did think passives could only resolve during a designated "passives" step (which might also be in step 2 or 5).

Thanks again for clearing that up!



#16 ktom

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:21 AM

Ratatoskr said:

So that's the reason "When revealed…" passives can both resolve as a framework event and be considered passive effects. I always thought there was an inconsistency in the FAQ, but looking at it that way it bceomes clear.
Correct.

The practical effect of having the framework event for "resolve 'when revealed' plot effects" is clarification of the rule that any "when revealed" passives must go before any other applicable passive effect in that part of the plot phase - otherwise, the First Player could choose for things like Golden Tooth Mines to happen before "when revealed" plot effects. 

Ratatoskr said:

For the record, I didn't think passives could only resolve in step 4, but I did think passives could only resolve during a designated "passives" step (which might also be in step 2 or 5).
I didn't really think so, but wanted to make sure people reading the post who haven't spent as much time with the rules documents as you have didn't take your shorthand as the final say.



#17 Khudzlin

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:36 PM

Ratatoskr said:

For the record, I didn't think passives could only resolve in step 4, but I did think passives could only resolve during a designated "passives" step (which might also be in step 2 or 5).

I thought passives couldn't resolve during step 2 and were simply slated to resolve during the next step 4.






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