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Nameless Things and Forest Snare


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#1 jjeagle

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:52 AM

Nameless Thing attaches player cards to itself.

Forest Snare has the text "Attached enemy cannot attack."

I can't see any reason why a Forest Snare that is attached to Nameless Thing by the effect on NT wouldn't thus ensnare the Nameless Thing and prevent it from attacking. Seems a bit crazy though.


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#2 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 07:59 AM

When you attach player cards to Elder Thing, attach them upside-down thus only their costs are visible. This way you'll see all information you need without questions like this coming up. 



#3 jjeagle

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 08:10 AM

But my point is that there is no basis in the rules to do what you have suggested, or any basis in the rules (I think) to believe that the cards attached to NT are out of play in any other respect beyond their cost.


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#4 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 08:33 AM

That makes no sense. Cards are attached to Elder Things only because of their cost, to create a randomness of their parameters.

Any other interaction with attached cards would be invalid, because cards are attached not as attachments. 



#5 jjeagle

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 08:56 AM

It makes perfect sense in rules terms - there is no basis to distinguish between the state of being attached to Nameless Thing as a result of NT's text, and the state of being attached to Nameless Thing as a result of being played as an attachment in the Planning phase.

I am certain this is not the designers' intent, and I certainly think it is a silly situation, but that is a different point.


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#6 leptokurt

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 10:17 AM

Wow, that's a good catch. I agree, rulewise the enemy should not be able to attack. Also it makes sense thematically as it's a trap. Yes, a forest trap in the undergound, I hear you,  but hey - I don't mind!



#7 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 12:12 PM

It makes no sense in terms of game rules.

Attachment card types are attached during the planning phase by the player.

Player cards from player deck are attached to Elder Things when they engage, and by sharing the same word "attach" - it's a completely diffrent mechanic, attaching all - events, attachments, allies. And in this mechanic card text doesn't matters, the only thing that matters is cost.  



#8 leptokurt

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 08:24 PM

MyNeighbourTrololo said:

It makes no sense in terms of game rules.

Attachment card types are attached during the planning phase by the player.

Player cards from player deck are attached to Elder Things when they engage, and by sharing the same word "attach" - it's a completely diffrent mechanic, attaching all - events, attachments, allies. And in this mechanic card text doesn't matters, the only thing that matters is cost.  

Only the player is restricted to the planning phase when playing attachments. The encounter deck isn't.

 

Example: "Caught in a Web". Counts as an attachment, is attached during the quest phase.

 

The  card text of Forest Snare gives no limitation either. It just says "Attach to an enemy engaged with a player. Attached enemy cannot attack." All these requirements are fullfilled when a Nameless Thing's forced action triggers. I still have no clue if this was intended or not. After all Imladris Stargazer gives the player a good chance to actually trap one of these monsters with Forest Snare.



#9 Rashley

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 09:37 PM

These are all valid points and shows another example of bad use of wording by the designers.  I will be e-mailing for an answer as they replied last time very quickly, but I would be very surprised if the obvious answer wasn't correct.  Cards placed on these 'Nameless Things' - better word than 'attached' - only count their 'cost' value.  Any cards attached as normal 'Attachments' don't add their 'cost', only their effect.  That sounds reasonable, but it will be up to the players to remember which are which.  Attaching top/bottom looks the best.  Cheers!



#10 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 11:22 PM

leptokurt said:

 

 

Only the player is restricted to the planning phase when playing attachments. The encounter deck isn't.

 

Example: "Caught in a Web". Counts as an attachment, is attached during the quest phase.

 

The  card text of Forest Snare gives no limitation either. It just says "Attach to an enemy engaged with a player. Attached enemy cannot attack." All these requirements are fullfilled when a Nameless Thing's forced action triggers. I still have no clue if this was intended or not. After all Imladris Stargazer gives the player a good chance to actually trap one of these monsters with Forest Snare.

I speak - they don't listen.

Cards from the deck are attached not as the attachment card type. It's a diffirent mechanic and it has nothing to do with card text. It's something like facedown players cards considered as 1 atk 1 def 1 hp orcs in escape from the Dol Guldur.



#11 HilariousPete

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 12:06 AM

MyNeighbourTrololo said:

 

Cards from the deck are attached not as the attachment card type. It's a diffirent mechanic and it has nothing to do with card text.

Not really. FAQ (1.23) Attachments: "Any card that attaches to another card is treated as an Attachment in addition to its other card types."

So to use a word like "place" or to add a sentence like "attached cards are considered out of play" would have been beter. But it's pretty obvious that the text box of player cards should be blanked or inactive or something else.



#12 leptokurt

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 06:16 AM

MyNeighbourTrololo said:

leptokurt said:

 

 

 

Only the player is restricted to the planning phase when playing attachments. The encounter deck isn't.

 

Example: "Caught in a Web". Counts as an attachment, is attached during the quest phase.

 

The  card text of Forest Snare gives no limitation either. It just says "Attach to an enemy engaged with a player. Attached enemy cannot attack." All these requirements are fullfilled when a Nameless Thing's forced action triggers. I still have no clue if this was intended or not. After all Imladris Stargazer gives the player a good chance to actually trap one of these monsters with Forest Snare.

 

I speak - they don't listen.

 

Cards from the deck are attached not as the attachment card type. It's a diffirent mechanic and it has nothing to do with card text. It's something like facedown players cards considered as 1 atk 1 def 1 hp orcs in escape from the Dol Guldur.

As Pete already pointed out, an attached card is always an attachment. That's fool proof logic btw. Hell, the Nameless Things' card text explicitely states that these cards are attached to it, so why on earth shouldn't they be attachments? And once they're "attached", the "when attached…" bit of Forest Snare triggers as long as nothing else explictely prevents that from happening. Like "cards text are blank" or "Chuck Norris once escaped a Forest Snare" or something like that.



#13 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 08:10 PM

Yea, whatever, do what you want, make game easier for yourself in whatever way you find comfortable. Dont forget to increase nameless thing health when it gets citadel breatsplate and stuff. 



#14 plueschi

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 09:54 PM

 This discussion is not about making your life easier.

Neither is it about the possible intention of the game designer.

It is just about rules as written. That's all.



#15 Angus Lee

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:04 PM

MyNeighbourTrololo said:

Yea, whatever, do what you want, make game easier for yourself in whatever way you find comfortable. Dont forget to increase nameless thing health when it gets citadel breatsplate and stuff. 

Citadel Plate reads: "… Attached hero gets +4 Hit Points."

So it is not applicable to the Nameless Thing.  But it is another case in Forest Snare, so I think we need an official ruling/errata here.


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#16 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 12:20 AM

Official ruling would be obvious. This thread is just a silly attempt to justify disabling the Nameless things when it got Forest Snare from the deck accidently. 



#17 jjeagle

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:28 AM

MyNeighbourTrololo said:

Official ruling would be obvious. This thread is just a silly attempt to justify disabling the Nameless things when it got Forest Snare from the deck accidently. 

I started the thread, and I don't think this is a fair comment. I acknowledged that I thought (a) the situation was silly, and (b) the designer's intent was (probably) obvious. It is legitimate, not "silly", to highlight rules loopholes and problems with card design/templating.


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#18 MyNeighbourTrololo

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:30 AM

Thats why you guys keep defending the method of disabling the Nameless One by feeding Forest Snare into him? 

 



#19 jjeagle

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:38 AM

MyNeighbourTrololo said:

Thats why you guys keep defending the method of disabling the Nameless One by feeding Forest Snare into him? 

Yes - we are going by what the rules say and what the cards say.

You are going by what you think the rules should be, and how you think the designers intended these cards to interact.

You are probably right in your assessment of the designers' intent, but designer intent cannot be the basis for rules judgements - the designers need to issue an errata (something on the lines of: "cards attached to Nameless Thing are considered to have their text boxes blanked"), and all will be well.


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#20 plueschi

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:43 AM

jjeagle said:

MyNeighbourTrololo said:

 

Thats why you guys keep defending the method of disabling the Nameless One by feeding Forest Snare into him? 

 

 

Yes - we are going by what the rules say and what the cards say.

You are going by what you think the rules should be, and how you think the designers intended these cards to interact.

You are probably right in your assessment of the designers' intent, but designer intent cannot be the basis for rules judgements - the designers need to issue an errata (something on the lines of: "cards attached to Nameless Thing are considered to have their text boxes blanked"), and all will be well.

this.

As it currently stands Forest Snare works on those Nameless things. Just because everybody (including you, me or jjeagle) thinks that it is meant to be different, doesn't actually change the facts at all.






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