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Disarming stunned opponents - how?


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#1 Luddite

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 01:41 AM

 Stunned amendments:

'Anyone who was in melee combat with the stunned character is no longer considered to be engaged…'

 

Disarm talent

'When engaged with with an opponent wielding a melee weapon…'

 

OK, so, a stunned opponent can no longer be subject to a disarm action.  How have you dealt with this?



#2 Gurkhal

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 02:35 AM

Luddite said:

 Stunned amendments:

'Anyone who was in melee combat with the stunned character is no longer considered to be engaged…'

 

Disarm talent

'When engaged with with an opponent wielding a melee weapon…'

 

OK, so, a stunned opponent can no longer be subject to a disarm action.  How have you dealt with this?

 

I would go with basic sense and declare that when the rules were writen they wrote it in a bad way. Stunned opponents can be disarmed.



#3 Faern

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 10:19 AM

 Roleplaying sense dictates that it shouldnt be a problem taking a weapon from an opponent that is stunned, and therefore not resisting even the slightest ;)



#4 Luddite

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 12:06 PM

Faern said:

 Roleplaying sense dictates that it shouldnt be a problem taking a weapon from an opponent that is stunned, and therefore not resisting even the slightest ;)

 

But stunned characters do 'resist'.  Errata p11, 'While a stunned character can make no actions, he is not considered to be helpless or unaware'.

 

In any case, the solution suggested is to ignore the rules and make it up?

 

 



#5 Faern

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 10:14 PM

 Personally in the game that I GM, its definately a house rule that stunned characters dont "resist".
Up to the individial GM to make up his mind for the game I guess :)



#6 Lionus

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 11:00 PM

I suggest watching a video of someone being tasered, then decide from their reaction if they are 'resisting' whilst pissing their pants, and thus even capable of holding on to whatever they're holding.

Also, isn't part of the definition of stunned something to do with being helpless. Aware ok, but helpless yes most definatley,



#7 Aarrum

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 07:32 AM

 It seems to me there is a difference between stunned and paralyzed. I've always viewed stunned more along the lines of glare in your eyes, weakened body, unable to do anything but try to recover, acknowledge your surroundings. Whereas paralyzed would be more akin to helplessness.



#8 Luddite

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 11:48 AM

 OK, so how do i deal with the basic problem set out in the OP?

 

How do you chaps resolve the apparent incongruity in the rules?

 

 



#9 Zakalwe

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 12:44 PM

Luddite said:

 OK, so how do i deal with the basic problem set out in the OP?

 

How do you chaps resolve the apparent incongruity in the rules?

 

 

I think we all agree that 'Stunned' covers a broad range of conditions.   Has anyone ever been knocked out?  I have, not out cold mind you, I still had enough wits to think "get up NOW or you'll get a kicking!" and I got up. I suspect that if I had been holding a weapon I would have had the wits to hold on to it IF I hadn't already dropped it when I fell.

So I suspect it wouldn't be black and white, but it would be a LOT easier to perform a disarm.  Since it is an opposeed test why not give a WS bonus to the disarmer and a negative to the diarmee.  Perhap +20/-20 or even +30/-30.

OPTIONAL EXTRAS:  (I prefer to keep rules simple, but if you wanted to take it further you could require the disarmee to pas a WP test to attempt to resist; however that would make warriors worse at holding their weapons when stunned that adepts and psykers.  Taking this even further you could require a WP or WS check WHEN they get stunned to see if they drop it, perhaps a bit harsh though!)

Nicely picked up on the rules inconsistency Luddite.

Interrogator Z



#10 IdOfEntity

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 04:27 PM

 As to the Taser example, I believe THAT person is helpless.

My simple fix?  The player gets a +20 to disarm, maneuver, and grapple tests.  Worse than fatigued, but not as bad as completely surprised.



#11 Darth Smeg

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 07:27 PM

I'd say that you're free to re-engage yourself in melee as a free action. Or to select whether or not to "be disengaged" or not.

After all, you may employ melee attacks to Stunned opponents, and that is really no different than using other melee actions like disarm. I think the "not considered engaged" bit is to enable characters to leave/flee without using the disengage action and without being subject to free attacks.

And, as you get a bonus on regular attacks v. stunned opponents, you should get a similar bonus to your disarm attempt.


Tarald - The Dark Lord of Smeg

You're not drunk if you can lie on the floor without holding on

 

My House Rules for using Only War (and more) for Dark Heresy games


#12 Lionus

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 10:53 PM

IdOfEntity said:

 As to the Taser example, I believe THAT person is helpless.

My simple fix?  The player gets a +20 to disarm, maneuver, and grapple tests.  Worse than fatigued, but not as bad as completely surprised.

Right, and isn't that essentially what weapons like shock mauls do? Not that that's the only way to have your charachter get shocked, but it's probably the most common. I guess if you showed me nude pics of someone like Rosanne Barr or Susan Boyle first thing in the morning I'd be pretty shocked as well, but probably not drop my toothbrush, and be reasonably able to hold onto it if someone grasped for it.

To Interrogator Z: I have been knocked out cold, and aside from being an incredibly disconcerting experience it was interesting that it doesn't happen all at once. There is a brief moment between the cause (In my case twice a blow to the head - which probably explains alot about me personally - and once a blow to the back from a fall that knocked the air out of my lungs, preventing me from breating for a moment) and when the lights actually go out where you can see the world around you, but everthing sounds like you're at the bottom of a pool and I could manage some rudimentary thoughts, but as for holding on to things, that might just be random luck if your fingers clamp down or relax. I honestly don't remember if i held onto or dropped whatever I was holding at the time of any of them. Which, is probably a symptom of temporary loss of consciousness.



#13 IdOfEntity

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 03:25 AM

Lionus said:

 

 

Right, and isn't that essentially what weapons like shock mauls do? Not that that's the only way to have your charachter get shocked, but it's probably the most common. I guess if you showed me nude pics of someone like Rosanne Barr or Susan Boyle first thing in the morning I'd be pretty shocked as well, but probably not drop my toothbrush, and be reasonably able to hold onto it if someone grasped for it.

This is how I understand it.  Feel free to critique these as you see fit, but they work pretty well for myself and my group.

Shock Weapons:

I'm going to use the Shira Calpurnia book descriptions as my basis.  When the shock maul is making contact it does cause involuntary muscle seizure and constriction.  It's also painful.  While the shock is being delivered the person is helpless, but as soon as the shock ceases the subject regains some control.  They're still in pain and don't have full mobility/dexterity for a while.  So, in game mechanics I suppose this translates into fatigued.  While the shock is being delivered you ARE helpless (useful for narratives outside of true combat)  If you hold a fully powered shock maul to someone's sternum and continuously discharge it the target is helpless the entire time.  Once the shock ceases their muscles have a chance to recover, but the strain will have left them fatigued.  Do this enough, and they'll pass out.  Fatigue causes a -10 to tests, right?  -10

Stunned:

Personal experience and what I understand from the game mechanics are this.  You take a nasty hit and for a few seconds can't do much of anything.  Like when you get the wind knocked out of you, or take a nasty hit to the head that doesn't knock you out.  You're not going to be able to do much while you collect yourself.  You're probably not that aware of your surroundings, and can't focus well enough to process the stimuli.  (or you just don't care)  I've had the wind knocked out of me plenty of times to know that it takes a few seconds before I can do anything.  I've held onto things while this has happened, but it's been pretty easy for someone to take an item from me.  For instance a baseball bat after a pitcher tried to soften my skull.  A nasty hit to the head left me dizzy and fuzzy for a bit.  This is stunned.  I would make this a -20 penalty (or +20 bonus to the player)

Surprised:

You just don't see it coming, so you don't have time to react (unless you have wicked good reflexes/overwhelming strength)  Hence the -30 penalty (or +30 to the player)

Helpless:

You're unconscious.  You have been knocked the **** out.  Your fatigue has exceeded your TB.  A jarring strike to the head, being overcome by pain, or suffering from shock to the point where you pass out.  Maybe you took a nasty 10 meter fall, suffered impact damage, and accrued enough fatigue.  If you've "blacked out" you are helpless, and you are not stunned.  (Guaranteed)



#14 Blood Pact

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 04:39 AM

Lionus said:

IdOfEntity said:

 

 As to the Taser example, I believe THAT person is helpless.

 

 

Right, and isn't that essentially what weapons like shock mauls do? Not that that's the only way to have your charachter get shocked, but it's probably the most common. I guess if you showed me nude pics of someone like Rosanne Barr or Susan Boyle first thing in the morning I'd be pretty shocked as well, but probably not drop my toothbrush, and be reasonably able to hold onto it if someone grasped for it.

To Interrogator Z: I have been knocked out cold, and aside from being an incredibly disconcerting experience it was interesting that it doesn't happen all at once. There is a brief moment between the cause (In my case twice a blow to the head - which probably explains alot about me personally - and once a blow to the back from a fall that knocked the air out of my lungs, preventing me from breating for a moment) and when the lights actually go out where you can see the world around you, but everthing sounds like you're at the bottom of a pool and I could manage some rudimentary thoughts, but as for holding on to things, that might just be random luck if your fingers clamp down or relax. I honestly don't remember if i held onto or dropped whatever I was holding at the time of any of them. Which, is probably a symptom of temporary loss of consciousness.

Well, the thing with a taser is that the current is still flowing through the wires. That person is helpless more because of the electrical current on their muscles. A stungun would be a better basis for comparison, and those only render someone instantly unconcious if you hit the person in the right spot (or if you're in a movie).

A shock maul basically combines a powerful stungun (because the current floods the target body only for a relatively brief time) with a club. And this isn't the only means of stunning someome in the game. Stun grenades, for instance, which would reasonable take the form of a modern day flash-bang, which also don't render someone completely helpless. Likewise gasses, and many other means of stunning, won't render someone completely helpless.



#15 Luddite

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 11:59 AM

Darth Smeg said:

I'd say that you're free to re-engage yourself in melee as a free action. Or to select whether or not to "be disengaged" or not.

After all, you may employ melee attacks to Stunned opponents, and that is really no different than using other melee actions like disarm. I think the "not considered engaged" bit is to enable characters to leave/flee without using the disengage action and without being subject to free attacks.

And, as you get a bonus on regular attacks v. stunned opponents, you should get a similar bonus to your disarm attempt.

 

Ah right, so the fix is to ignore the rules and amend to 'not considered engaged unless you wish to remain as such'?  Makes sense.

Cool.  Cheers Darth.  

 

 

 



#16 Gregorius21778

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Posted 05 July 2012 - 09:59 PM

Luddite said:

Darth Smeg said:

 

I'd say that you're free to re-engage yourself in melee as a free action. Or to select whether or not to "be disengaged" or not.

After all, you may employ melee attacks to Stunned opponents, and that is really no different than using other melee actions like disarm. I think the "not considered engaged" bit is to enable characters to leave/flee without using the disengage action and without being subject to free attacks.

And, as you get a bonus on regular attacks v. stunned opponents, you should get a similar bonus to your disarm attempt.

 

 

 

Ah right, so the fix is to ignore the rules and amend to 'not considered engaged unless you wish to remain as such'?  Makes sense.

Cool.  Cheers Darth.  

 

 



In addition to this, I remember that attacks on a stunned target receive +20 (at least, they do so in BC). Since a stunned target is not "helpless" I would simply ask for the usual dice roles for "disarming a target" but would grant the mentioned bonus. Furthermore (since the target is not capable of active action) I would change the dice role form "contested" into "standard" (you role; if you succeed the weapon is gone, etc.). Unless the GM decides that keeing once weapon in hand is rather "reflexive". In that case, it would remain a contested role but with the mentioned bonus for "stunned target".






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