Jump to content



Photo

Tourney Rules are up (with a new Battlebuilder)


  • Please log in to reply
32 replies to this topic

#1 DoomOnYou72

DoomOnYou72

    Member

  • Members
  • 269 posts

Posted 30 June 2012 - 01:12 AM

FFG has posted the Tornement Rules for the season on the news page www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp . The rules also include a New/ Updated battle builder (intended for 400 pts. and below as thats where  they think the metagame changes). Some of the new Battle Builder stuff is pretty cool. Also new game night kits will be out in July.



#2 felkor

felkor

    Member

  • Members
  • 998 posts

Posted 30 June 2012 - 01:29 AM

DoomOnYou72 said:

FFG has posted the Tornement Rules for the season on the news page www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp . The rules also include a New/ Updated battle builder (intended for 400 pts. and below as thats where  they think the metagame changes). Some of the new Battle Builder stuff is pretty cool. Also new game night kits will be out in July.

 

Yeah, I'm thinking in any future battlebuilder games, I'll use the tourney version instead of the one in the book.



#3 blkdymnd

blkdymnd

    Member

  • Members
  • 958 posts

Posted 30 June 2012 - 03:25 AM

 Hopefully this means we'll have the Zverograd book in time for the new league



#4 slainex

slainex

    Member

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 30 June 2012 - 04:45 AM

 Are these guys seriously going to introduce tournaments with the rules in its current state? They must be desperate to sell miniatures now that they have exhausted the sales of rule books. Better start hoarding Markus, Angela, Rosie and Fireball minis quick so I can make big bucks on EBay.



#5 blkdymnd

blkdymnd

    Member

  • Members
  • 958 posts

Posted 30 June 2012 - 05:13 AM

 The rules are fine in their current state.  Not sure what you mean by desperation of selling miniatures and they haven't exhausted the sales of their rulebook.  The rulebook went to a second printing because the first one completely sold out.  And they have never had an issue with selling miniatures so far.  So hoard all you wish (and why a fireball?  I understand the campaign heroes, but you got me confused by a heavy that is currently available), it won't matter much.



#6 Cannor

Cannor

    Member

  • Members
  • 75 posts

Posted 30 June 2012 - 05:23 AM

It'd be nice if the pages that are meant to be printed in multiples were also supplied in a simpler form. Even with black and white printing, the Player Score Sheet and Player Reporting Sheet have a lot of unnecessary chrome that will just use up ink.

slainex said:

 Are these guys seriously going to introduce tournaments with the rules in its current state? They must be desperate to sell miniatures now that they have exhausted the sales of rule books. Better start hoarding Markus, Angela, Rosie and Fireball minis quick so I can make big bucks on EBay.

Why are the current rules not fit for tournament use?

 



#7 slainex

slainex

    Member

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 30 June 2012 - 11:15 AM

I guess not many people have had the experience of two fully loaded fireballs air dropped on their flank.



#8 blkdymnd

blkdymnd

    Member

  • Members
  • 958 posts

Posted 30 June 2012 - 11:26 AM

Nope, I wouldn't give my opponent the chance.  With the amount of cohesion between squads, and over 200 points (out of 300, since that's what FFG have implied their tournaments would be run at) he invested in that useless combo.  I would spread out enough or leave him a corner of my choosing for him to land in and take out the very small amount of troops he starts with.  



#9 Dakkon426

Dakkon426

    Member

  • Members
  • 762 posts

Posted 30 June 2012 - 11:58 AM

slainex said:

I guess not many people have had the experience of two fully loaded fireballs air dropped on their flank.

 

How does dropping multiple fire balls have any effect on viability of tournament rules? 



#10 Dr.Cornelius

Dr.Cornelius

    Member

  • Members
  • 112 posts

Posted 30 June 2012 - 01:46 PM

slainex said:

I guess not many people have had the experience of two fully loaded fireballs air dropped on their flank.

Agree and disagree:

You are correct on two fronts:

  1. Air Drop should not be allowed for Heavy Walkers, or at a minimum Air Drop point cost should scale with the unit size.  Something like 5 for soldiers, 8 for light walkers, 12 for medium walkers, 25 for heavy.  Air Dropping the most powerful units in the game distorts the balance, and it is not clear this was the designer's intent or was sufficiently playtested.
  2. In general Heavy Walkers are not well balanced against other units.  Heavy Walkers are fun and add an interesting element to the game, but point-for-point their armor is unbalanced:  It is very difficult for a force without a Heavy to make a dent in a reasonably well played and well supported Heavy.  Hopefully FFG will realize this and make a correction to the armor value, increase armor penetration of other units, nerf the Mechanic special ability or institute some other fix.  (note: recent update to the Battle Builder makes me optimistic that FFG understands game balance and will make course corrections)

But the game has also changed in a subtle way:  read the Battle Builder in the new DW Tournament rules closely.  2 of 4 scenario objectives reference Soldier units holding terrain and the 4th references assassinating an opposing command section.  Have not played it out, but likely to decrease Heavies dominance.



#11 blkdymnd

blkdymnd

    Member

  • Members
  • 958 posts

Posted 30 June 2012 - 02:01 PM

 A well played non heavy force can compete well with a force with a heavy.  I rarely take one and though they're beefy, there are a lot of ways to deal with them.



#12 Shadow4ce

Shadow4ce

    Member

  • Members
  • 645 posts

Posted 30 June 2012 - 04:55 PM

 @ Dr. Cornelius - I'm not sure you could nerf the mechanic ability any further and make it even worth wasting an entire unit's action on it. Unless you just see a lot of Rosie. I watched my opponents go the whole game tonight (team game) attempting to repair their walkers every turn. 7 out of 7 failures. By sounding their Walkers, my daughter & I kept their command squads tied to one location the entire game. We didnt bring any mechanics, and her Ludwig made it to the end with two wounds, my Sturmkö*** with 1. Both of our command sections got wiped out, but played integral roles in our win by eliminating more points worth of the enemy than they cost. Mechanic, if anything, needs to allow other special actions to make it worth while (medic, mechanic, reload all at the same time is worth an action. 33% chance to heal 1 wound, not worth it at all IMO, unless there is literally no other action the mechanic's unit can do). 



#13 blkdymnd

blkdymnd

    Member

  • Members
  • 958 posts

Posted 30 June 2012 - 05:11 PM

 I use the medic a lot for anti-suppression, if I get a heal out of it, bonus.  Never have I used the mechanic.



#14 Shadow4ce

Shadow4ce

    Member

  • Members
  • 645 posts

Posted 30 June 2012 - 07:43 PM

blkdymnd said:

 I use the medic a lot for anti-suppression, if I get a heal out of it, bonus.  Never have I used the mechanic.

Ditto. Except I occasionally use mechanic to put a fire out. But I don't use either anymore unless it's to clear suppression or vehicle damage effect. Healing a wound, bonus, not end-goal. 



#15 Dr.Cornelius

Dr.Cornelius

    Member

  • Members
  • 112 posts

Posted 01 July 2012 - 01:40 PM

blkdymnd said:

 A well played non heavy force can compete well with a force with a heavy.  I rarely take one and though they're beefy, there are a lot of ways to deal with them.

Please share your strategy and tactics for a non-heavy defeating a heavy force.  I have tried and failed on numerous occasions.  Additionally, the Kublacon DW tournament had heavies defeating non-heavies every time.  Clearly the matchup depends on terrain / LOS and opposing player skill, but in my experience heavies are nearly impossible to kill without other heavies.

Two specifics:

  1. Knowing I would face a Königsluther, I fielded two Pounders, The Gunners w/ upgrade and Tank Busters w/ Air Drop.    Net result, KL survives with round half damage, both Pounders one-shotted and the infantry AT units suppressed by infantry protecting the KL's vulnerable rear.
  2. The key thing that makes heavies viable is the Mechanic special ability.   Heavies are difficult to destroy due to high health, but the cumulative effects of several hits could leave them Blind, Burning and Weaponless - except for the Mechanic SA, which automatically removes on condition.

That being said, would be very interested in seeing battle reports where non-heavies carried the day over heavies.

 



#16 blkdymnd

blkdymnd

    Member

  • Members
  • 958 posts

Posted 01 July 2012 - 01:45 PM

Dr.Cornelius said:

blkdymnd said:

 

 A well played non heavy force can compete well with a force with a heavy.  I rarely take one and though they're beefy, there are a lot of ways to deal with them.

 

Please share your strategy and tactics for a non-heavy defeating a heavy force.  I have tried and failed on numerous occasions.  Additionally, the Kublacon DW tournament had heavies defeating non-heavies every time.  Clearly the matchup depends on terrain / LOS and opposing player skill, but in my experience heavies are nearly impossible to kill without other heavies.

 

Two specifics:

  1. Knowing I would face a Königsluther, I fielded two Pounders, The Gunners w/ upgrade and Tank Busters w/ Air Drop.    Net result, KL survives with round half damage, both Pounders one-shotted and the infantry AT units suppressed by infantry protecting the KL's vulnerable rear.
  2. The key thing that makes heavies viable is the Mechanic special ability.   Heavies are difficult to destroy due to high health, but the cumulative effects of several hits could leave them Blind, Burning and Weaponless - except for the Mechanic SA, which automatically removes on condition.

That being said, would be very interested in seeing battle reports where non-heavies carried the day over heavies.

 

Lately I've been running a Red Devil platoon, so no armor rolls for them.  I've also taken out two in a game using hammers and Rhino on rear attacks.  Try to get a close in deployment.  That's seemed to work for me so far.



#17 Dr.Cornelius

Dr.Cornelius

    Member

  • Members
  • 112 posts

Posted 01 July 2012 - 02:03 PM

blkdymnd said:

 

Lately I've been running a Red Devil platoon, so no armor rolls for them.  I've also taken out two in a game using hammers and Rhino on rear attacks.  Try to get a close in deployment.  That's seemed to work for me so far.

  Was your opponent a novice?  In my playgroup, a skilled commander will position an infantry unit directly behind the heavy to prevent rear close assault from Rhino+Hammers. 

As to Red Devils, how many did you field?  Also, I think the math favors Tank Busters or Tank Busters + Ozz over RD or RD + Action Jackson.

Math vs Armor 7 Heavy:

Tank Busters
3x 2/2 attacks at range 16.  Average 2 successes for 4 damage.  Heavy rolls 7 armor save dice, averaging 1-2 saves for net 2 damage.  Importantly the TBs roll all 4 dice on the vehicle damage table on page 44.

Importantly, Tank Busters have Jump, and can ignore intervening terrain & models on a move and enemy cannot react to move.

Red Devils
3x 1/2 attacks at range 12.  Average 1 success for 2 damage, no armor save. 

Action Jackson improves RD's firepower and survivability but I think the numbers still favor Tank Busters.

And do not forget that a skilled opponent should focus all his resources to destroy the any unit that can damage the Heavy.  In my experience, the best a single unit can hope for is one good attack before being decimated by opposing Snipers, Angela, Marcus+Gorillas, etc.



#18 Dr.Cornelius

Dr.Cornelius

    Member

  • Members
  • 112 posts

Posted 01 July 2012 - 02:08 PM

Shadow4ce said:

… 33% chance to heal 1 wound, not worth it at all IMO, unless there is literally no other action the mechanic's unit can do). 

@Shadow4ce - I think you are missing the most important part of Mechanic.  Agree 33% chance to remove 1 wound is not an efficient use of command section.  The key is Mechanic also auto-removes one condition from the vehicle damage table on p.44.  Without a mechanic or two, a heavy runs a risk of becoming blinded, on fire, immobilized or without its main weapon - making it a much more balanced unit. 



#19 blkdymnd

blkdymnd

    Member

  • Members
  • 958 posts

Posted 01 July 2012 - 02:49 PM

 Well the biggest thing Devils have over Busters is you can put Devils anywhere you need them.  I airdrop a full platoon usually, so 5 units with Action Jackson.  Normally have a Combat Platoon to back them up.



#20 slainex

slainex

    Member

  • Members
  • 15 posts

Posted 01 July 2012 - 05:03 PM

blkdymnd said:

 Well the biggest thing Devils have over Busters is you can put Devils anywhere you need them.  I airdrop a full platoon usually, so 5 units with Action Jackson.  Normally have a Combat Platoon to back them up.

I am quite drunk right now so I apologize if I offend anyone. If you actually bought 5 units of Red Devils, and played a  game with them; it really doesn't matter who won in the end, because the biggest winner is the FFG marketing department. 

 

 






© 2013 Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc. Fantasy Flight Games and the FFG logo are ® of Fantasy Flight Publishing, Inc.  All rights reserved.
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Contact | User Support | Rules Questions | Help | RSS