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Where's the Xenos?


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#1 Corrinmana

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:25 PM

FF, please make a Xenos-centric game. Obviously, Eldar is iconic. Tao would be cool to.

FF Forum members, show support for this.



#2 Mjoellnir

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:31 PM

=> Support <=

Still, I have pretty much given up hope by now. The next system will probably be Adeptus Mechanicus. Or Adeptus Arbites, or Necromunda, or or or. The best thing Eldar or Tau could hope for is a side entry somewhere in a Rogue Trader book.



#3 KommissarK

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:18 AM

A Xenos campaign would suffer from the similar things the current 40k lines suffer from. 40k is not really a universe where a totally mixed group of "adventurers" can gather together and go planet to planet, without a significant rewrite to some of the core principles of the lore. A kroot warrior, a necron warrior, a fire warrior, and an eldar ranger in fact do not meet in a tavern in 40k, and decide to go kill the arch lich Acerack in his horror filled tomb in the eye of terror.

Any xenos campaign is going to have to pick a species and have everyone play that one side if it wants to have any hope of plausibility in the 40k universe. And thats going to be very difficult to get a majority of the players to pick something, especially the more obscure races (an all hrud campaign?). The fans of the xenos races are split apart on the different factions, so as to make it difficult to cater to any one side.

Some people may say this is a great reason to do a generic book… while that may be useful, the fluff of 40k doesn't really lend itself very well to just any small group of people going out and being heroic. The books and systems we have try to cover the few instances where someone can be able to do something about that (members of the inquisition, rogue traders, space marines (and so as to have marines of multiple chapters, the Deathwatch), heretic warbands). Even the new book is stretching it with the amount of freedom the members in it have (guardsmen tend to not have the luxury of picking their battles in the grand sense of the idea).



#4 Mjoellnir

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 11:23 PM

Well, what's the current state of the game. Dark Heresy is about playing the Inquisition. Deathwatch is about playing Space Marines. Only War is about playing Imperial Guard. Black Crusade is about playing chaos. The only game with a little bit of flexibility would be Rogue Trader and they barely do anything for that. Da Orkz an' da Kroot are in. But otherwise? The "Dark Eldar Kabalite Warrior" should come out tomorrow. :D It's oddly specific isn't it? Kind of like "the Tactical Space Marine" or "the Imperial Guard Sniper". No wyches, no corsairs, no options. But I'm pretty sure that it would be about as easy to get people to play a band of Eldar pirates as a bunch of expendable IG soldiers. And Tau? Tau can include Kroot and humans for goodness sake. There's really no excuse to churn out one human-centric RPG after the other.



#5 Nameless2all

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 01:27 PM

Mjoellnir said:

There's really no excuse to churn out one human-centric RPG after the other.

Actually there is. Profit.  But I see your point.  I too agree that a more diverse system should be in the works for RT and other FFG models (mostly RT though :).  But hey, that's just my opinion.  In some systems, playable Xenos races could easily be implemented.  In others, not so much.  Looking forward to anything FFG publishes no matter what it is, because even if I don't buy it someone else will.    Just means later down the road I might get what I like.  


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#6 Alpha Chaos 13

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 02:22 AM

I agree that a Tau Empire game would be the best way to go. I posted my thoughts on the Rogue Trader forum, for anyone who cares to looks.



#7 kwinland

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 05:12 PM

KommissarK said:

A Xenos campaign would suffer from the similar things the current 40k lines suffer from. 40k is not really a universe where a totally mixed group of "adventurers" can gather together and go planet to planet, without a significant rewrite to some of the core principles of the lore. A kroot warrior, a necron warrior, a fire warrior, and an eldar ranger in fact do not meet in a tavern in 40k, and decide to go kill the arch lich Acerack in his horror filled tomb in the eye of terror.

Any xenos campaign is going to have to pick a species and have everyone play that one side if it wants to have any hope of plausibility in the 40k universe. And thats going to be very difficult to get a majority of the players to pick something, especially the more obscure races (an all hrud campaign?). The fans of the xenos races are split apart on the different factions, so as to make it difficult to cater to any one side.

Some people may say this is a great reason to do a generic book… while that may be useful, the fluff of 40k doesn't really lend itself very well to just any small group of people going out and being heroic. The books and systems we have try to cover the few instances where someone can be able to do something about that (members of the inquisition, rogue traders, space marines (and so as to have marines of multiple chapters, the Deathwatch), heretic warbands). Even the new book is stretching it with the amount of freedom the members in it have (guardsmen tend to not have the luxury of picking their battles in the grand sense of the idea).

Howdy!

 

In a number of novels and some of the fluff, Xenos and Humans have worked together.  Kroot, Squats, and Eldar have worked with the Inquisition, and some Eldar have worked with Rogue Traders.  For many roleplaying campaigns, only a thin layer of plausibility is needed to have such races work together. :)

In this case, the background canon can support some of the races adventuring together.  I have *NO* clue why Orks were introduced as a Player race (I would argue that they would only work in an all-Ork game).  I would also argue that the Tau is a tough sell as well, although Human agents of the Tau Empire would be an interesting path (albeit boring for some).

Cheers,

 

Ken



#8 Kshatriya

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 04:08 AM

Alpha Chaos 13 said:

 

I agree that a Tau Empire game would be the best way to go. I posted my thoughts on the Rogue Trader forum, for anyone who cares to looks.

 

 

How do you suppose? I've never thought that different Tau castes really tactically mixed in a way supportive of an RPG. Maybe they do during leave hours, but not on the battlefield…unless the Air Caste is flying the APC carrying Fire Warriors somewhere.

I think Eldar would work quite well for Rogue Trader, and Harlequins are the easiest to justify fluff-wise. Corsairs could work but I'd worry you're basically playing the Rogue Trader career as a xenos and I'd hope for more career diversity than that. Kabalites aren't a bad place to start for DEldar.



#9 Librarian

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Posted 07 July 2012 - 05:38 PM

 as far as I remember from the last time I read the tau codex, they never interact in the battle field, earth caste build things, air fly, water talk, and fire fight. they are also forbidden from mixing with each other outside of work and if I remember right its illigal for them to cross breed between castes. 



#10 Face Eater

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 09:04 AM

Librarian said:

 as far as I remember from the last time I read the tau codex, they never interact in the battle field, earth caste build things, air fly, water talk, and fire fight. they are also forbidden from mixing with each other outside of work and if I remember right its illigal for them to cross breed between castes. 

Although I'd pressume there would be in theater maintenance staff, and assault marines, devstators, techmarines never mixed in the same squad, until they wrote they did for the Deathwatch RPG.



#11 George Labour

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:34 AM

WARNING: Kind of rambling due to having to rewrite this twice.

One of the major problems with adding Xenos PCs is that in 40k, aliens are often more like Lovecraftian horrors instead of the guys in funny outfits many people are familiar with from modern sci-fi. The Eldar aren't Legolas in space, they're the dark and vile fae of some old world fairy tales who just happen to have chainsaw swords and guns that fire ninja stars. Necrons aren't dead dudes in robot bodies, they're mecha cthulhu and his old one pals come to enslave the universe once more.

To make them playable in a group you'd have to strip away a lot of the horror and mystery of their existence and make them more human. Basically you'd start  with Bram Stoker's Dracula or Lovecraft's In the Mountains of Madness, and turn it into the Twilight novels.  Or making a game about the Marines from Aliens who now happen to have a xenomorph hanging out with them.  Or at least that's my quickly thought out opinion on it

AS for the  theycurrent crop of PC capabler Xenos Ork are actually the easiest and most likely of the aliens you can use as their motivations, and psychology are so simple and straightforward. They're also noted as being one of the few species that can compete wit h humanity but at the same time produce individuals who will work with/under humans when it suits them. 

Kroot aren't quite as simple to use as an ork but are noted as being a relatively unhostile species that is quite happy working with just about everyone without later betraying them when the winds shift.

IMO I think that if people want more alien species peacefully working alongside humans in a (mostly) equal partnership then they should perhaps try Traveller, Star Wars, or one of the other sci-fi games first. the 40k universe is simply not a happy one where people get along, and to change that might rob the setting of some of its appeal.

However, if they were to introduce more playable species then I think that they'd need to be smaller thinner books along the lines of the Dark Heresy books for Adeptus Arbites, and Deamon hunters. A supplement book that'd use the core rules of the parent game, but not directly mixing things like careers, and race options.

For example if they made an Eldar book, they'd make one  that used the rules from Only War. From there they'd include careers for aspect warriors, warlocks, rangers, and guardians. THen they'd include a section on equipment , followed by a chapter dedicated to adventure/mission ideas. Basically replaceing the human imperial guard with eldar.

Finally I'd much rather see them make a Titan Legions themed RPG or supplment. ^_^

 

 



#12 Plushy

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 11:55 AM

 Please don't make the same thread across five boards again. It's clutter.


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

Please check out my Dark Heresy to Only War conversion! You can find it on the main Only War forum. I'm always looking for more people to playtest it!


#13 Librarian

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Posted 08 July 2012 - 08:19 PM

 orks and kroot in rogue trader allways seemed to make sense. Orks will follow anyone who proves to the ork that they are the strongest one around and I can see a situation where a rogue trader captain takes down the biggest ork in the room with a well placed plasma shot and one of the boyz standing there thinks…"that guy is strong he is the boss now". Kroot on the other hand are mercenaries and hunters anyone willing to pay them and look the other way when they eat people can get atleast a few of them to work with them.

the problem with alot of the other species in 40k being a part of a rogue trader crew is that most of them see humans as filthy animals well eldar may occasionally work with humans they would never willingly work for a human. Plus from a PC perspective I will trust mercenaries that work for pay or who just love fighting but the ones that work for the thrill of the hunt tend to do dumb things like even the odds to make it a better fight. this is evil overlord 101.



#14 kwinland

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 04:12 AM

George Labour said:

WARNING: Kind of rambling due to having to rewrite this twice.

One of the major problems with adding Xenos PCs is that in 40k, aliens are often more like Lovecraftian horrors instead of the guys in funny outfits many people are familiar with from modern sci-fi. The Eldar aren't Legolas in space, they're the dark and vile fae of some old world fairy tales who just happen to have chainsaw swords and guns that fire ninja stars. Necrons aren't dead dudes in robot bodies, they're mecha cthulhu and his old one pals come to enslave the universe once more.

To make them playable in a group you'd have to strip away a lot of the horror and mystery of their existence and make them more human. Basically you'd start  with Bram Stoker's Dracula or Lovecraft's In the Mountains of Madness, and turn it into the Twilight novels.  Or making a game about the Marines from Aliens who now happen to have a xenomorph hanging out with them.  Or at least that's my quickly thought out opinion on it

AS for the  theycurrent crop of PC capabler Xenos Ork are actually the easiest and most likely of the aliens you can use as their motivations, and psychology are so simple and straightforward. They're also noted as being one of the few species that can compete wit h humanity but at the same time produce individuals who will work with/under humans when it suits them. 

Kroot aren't quite as simple to use as an ork but are noted as being a relatively unhostile species that is quite happy working with just about everyone without later betraying them when the winds shift.

IMO I think that if people want more alien species peacefully working alongside humans in a (mostly) equal partnership then they should perhaps try Traveller, Star Wars, or one of the other sci-fi games first. the 40k universe is simply not a happy one where people get along, and to change that might rob the setting of some of its appeal.

However, if they were to introduce more playable species then I think that they'd need to be smaller thinner books along the lines of the Dark Heresy books for Adeptus Arbites, and Deamon hunters. A supplement book that'd use the core rules of the parent game, but not directly mixing things like careers, and race options.

For example if they made an Eldar book, they'd make one  that used the rules from Only War. From there they'd include careers for aspect warriors, warlocks, rangers, and guardians. THen they'd include a section on equipment , followed by a chapter dedicated to adventure/mission ideas. Basically replaceing the human imperial guard with eldar.

Finally I'd much rather see them make a Titan Legions themed RPG or supplment. ^_^

 

Howdy,

It all depends on the author and the fluff.  Depending on the writer, sometimes the Eldar *are* simply Legolas in space.  Sometimes the Necrons *are* undead dudes in cybernetic bodies.  Good authors really bring out the "eldritch horror" or "inscrutable alien" in the characters of the fiction, but the 40K novels and fluff are choked with examples of more simplistic representation. 

In the 40K fluff/novels, the Eldar have worked/traveled with Humans.  As have Kroot and other "lesser" (i.e. undefined) alien races.  It is tough to make the argument for Orks and Tau, as the canon of 40K fiction really doesn't support normative interaction with the Imperium.

Even the representation of Chaos depends on the author  - sometimes the Ruinous Powers are more sinister, unknowable and Lovecraftian in menace, and sometimes they are just a bunch of horned spikey guys running around and spilling blood. :)

Depending on the GM and the Players, you have the fluff to support Xenos player races and can certainly have them interact with humans WHILE keeping the elements of mystery and alien menace.  Other games do it.  This game can do it.

THAT said, it all depends on what you want to do and get out of it.  Everyone feels different.

I have this strange feeling that we've had this conversation before… :)

Ken



#15 Blood Pact

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Posted 09 July 2012 - 05:50 AM

Face Eater said:

Librarian said:

 

 as far as I remember from the last time I read the tau codex, they never interact in the battle field, earth caste build things, air fly, water talk, and fire fight. they are also forbidden from mixing with each other outside of work and if I remember right its illigal for them to cross breed between castes. 

 

 

Although I'd pressume there would be in theater maintenance staff, and assault marines, devstators, techmarines never mixed in the same squad, until they wrote they did for the Deathwatch RPG.

Devastators, Techmarines and Tactical Marines aren't virtually different species like the Tau Castes (Air Caste can't even live in normal gravity remember, their bones are too fragile). And Techmarines, Librarians, or whatever, are still Space Marines first.

An Assault Marine isn't trained only in how to use a chainsword, bolt pistol, and jump pack, afterall. Space Marines share a common bare minimum of training. Taking several of them and sticking them together in a squad, they CAN work together easily, they're trained for this sort of thing. The Tau on the other hand, don't have any of this. You stick a Water Caste with a group of Fire Warriors, well he has some bodyguards to help keep him from getting shot, and they have someone to negotiate for them. But aside from a diplomat and his honour guard, you don't actually have an RPG party. And even that is a poor contrivance for a game, because it's only factoring in two Castes (let's through a Vespid, Ethereal, and Air Caste in their, and now you tell me what that group is going to be).



#16 Alpha Chaos 13

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 08:39 AM

Blood Pact said:

Face Eater said:

 

Librarian said:

 

 as far as I remember from the last time I read the tau codex, they never interact in the battle field, earth caste build things, air fly, water talk, and fire fight. they are also forbidden from mixing with each other outside of work and if I remember right its illigal for them to cross breed between castes. 

 

 

Although I'd pressume there would be in theater maintenance staff, and assault marines, devstators, techmarines never mixed in the same squad, until they wrote they did for the Deathwatch RPG.

 

 

Devastators, Techmarines and Tactical Marines aren't virtually different species like the Tau Castes (Air Caste can't even live in normal gravity remember, their bones are too fragile). And Techmarines, Librarians, or whatever, are still Space Marines first.

An Assault Marine isn't trained only in how to use a chainsword, bolt pistol, and jump pack, afterall. Space Marines share a common bare minimum of training. Taking several of them and sticking them together in a squad, they CAN work together easily, they're trained for this sort of thing. The Tau on the other hand, don't have any of this. You stick a Water Caste with a group of Fire Warriors, well he has some bodyguards to help keep him from getting shot, and they have someone to negotiate for them. But aside from a diplomat and his honour guard, you don't actually have an RPG party. And even that is a poor contrivance for a game, because it's only factoring in two Castes (let's through a Vespid, Ethereal, and Air Caste in their, and now you tell me what that group is going to be).

I don't think it's any more of a stretch than a Black Crusade game, where you can have a range of vastly different character types working together for a common goal. A PC group could be a heretek, Chaos Marine, feral warrior, mutant rebel, and fallen cleric. Sub in an earth caste technician, fire warrior, kroot scout, renegade Imp Guard, and an Ethereal. You still have a range of vastly different character types working together for a common goal. The Greater Good.



#17 Plushy

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Posted 10 July 2012 - 09:57 AM

 Tau society is very structured. Fire Warriors only go out in fight, Earth technicians only build **** and farm, etc.

A group wouldn't make any sense. If the party was sent somewhere, then the party would be entirely one caste/race. It's not like the Inquisition where they mix and match.


My apologies to anyone I offend; FFG staff, playtesters, and forum users alike. 

 

Please check out my Dark Heresy to Only War conversion! You can find it on the main Only War forum. I'm always looking for more people to playtest it!


#18 Cortez

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 12:52 AM

I like the Xenos in RT I think it fits well but I have an issues with any one who thinks they could rolepaly an Elder, evan a young, none craftworld one. you could not list the knowlage skills or understand the mind set. But that's just me and I don't like the concept of someone playing a elf in WFRP. My standard are to high.



#19 kwinland

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Posted 16 July 2012 - 03:03 AM

Cortez said:

I like the Xenos in RT I think it fits well but I have an issues with any one who thinks they could rolepaly an Elder, evan a young, none craftworld one. you could not list the knowlage skills or understand the mind set. But that's just me and I don't like the concept of someone playing a elf in WFRP. My standard are to high.

 

Howdy,

The problem with most fiction/games is that the "aliens" are never "alien" enough.  :)

The Eldar in Black Library fiction have understandable motivations and familiar psychology, as do "elves" in most heroic fantasy literature.  I agree with you and think that it is neat to have some aliens be totally inscrutable and unknown, and have those left as NPCs.  I prefer not to do that with the Eldar - they are very popular and really are not that different from other player choices as far as "otherness" with respect to canon fiction and fluff.

You want a REAL "alien" PC choice with respects to psychology and motivation?  Adeptus Mechanicus! :)

Cheers,

Ken



#20 Alpha Chaos 13

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Posted 06 August 2012 - 01:44 AM

Plushy said:

 Tau society is very structured. Fire Warriors only go out in fight, Earth technicians only build **** and farm, etc.

A group wouldn't make any sense. If the party was sent somewhere, then the party would be entirely one caste/race. It's not like the Inquisition where they mix and match.

Why not? An Ethereal has more influence than an Inquisitor. If he wants a diverse SpecOps team, who's going to tell him no? I've found certain Acolyte options to be a bit of a stretch, but I suspend disbelief for the sake of the game. A group of PCs is always going to be full of unusual individuals, that's a part of RPGs.






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