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Where's the Xenos?


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#1 Corrinmana

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:22 PM

FF, please make a Xenos-centric game. Obviously, Eldar is iconic. Tao would be cool to.

 

FF Forum members, show support for this.



#2 FailTruck

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 10:37 PM

Heresy.  You will be purged.



#3 Santiago

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:40 AM

 Stop spamming all the forums…

I don't know if they are going to do a full xenos game, but I seriously doubt it…



#4 Blood Pact

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:26 AM

Not that it ever stops anyone from continuing to beg for an Eldar game…

But Craftworld Eldar just isn't likely to ever be seen, as it is such a regimented society, with everyone seperated alone Path-based lines, it is effectively a Caste system. And you won't find a Warlock, Wraithguard, Ranger, Artist/Guardian, and Striking Scorpion, coming together as a group to go on adventures. You can't even include them in other games, if a DE Kabalite is of the correct power level for RT, then the closest equivalent for the Craftworlds would be a Guardian.

Dark Eldar could easily end up being Black Crusade with pointy ears. I mean, they really are the easiest of all the types of Eldar to make in to a game, but that game would be so similar to BC that there's little point in going all out on something like that. Despite what people may say, all of the Imperium based games are their own thing (the two most similar are DW and OW, and still play to very different themes).

Exodites never leave their worlds. Corsairs could work, but they're kinda Dark Eldar-lite (no seriously, corsairs are kinda dicks), but I think FFG is trying to avoid the bog standard of RPG's where you're just a little group on its own, wandering around, finding adventure. And giving them a ship would begin to make things too similar to RT (corsairs are wandering because they want the freedom to do what they want..).

Leaving Harlequins, which could actually work better than Dark Eldar. They have a special role within Eldar society, they work and travel in small groupes ("Troupes") made up of a diverse group of classes (Death Jester, Solitare, and Shadow Seer to name a few), and with the Black Library there's plenty of opportunity for mystical shenanigans. It'd have to be a higher power game, almost the same power level as Deathwatch.

But there you have it, not that I expect anyone to read this and stop griping about how we need an Eldar game, despite all the reasons I've pointed out that it's a difficult prospect to pull off.

And don't even suggest one big book that can let you play all Eldar, we all know there's no chance of that at all.



#5 Algus

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 04:20 AM

One day I will probably homebrew an Ork game if FFG never introduces a dedicated game for one of the Xeno races.  

DERES STOMPIN TO BE DONE



#6 Capt_Dymock

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 04:51 AM

Corrinmana said:

FF, please make a Xenos-centric game. Obviously, Eldar is iconic. Tao would be cool to.

 

Not really into it, myself. Though my group does want to play a (very very short) Ork campaign just for kicks. But there's already a lot of info about orks out there (and more coming out with the Koronus Bestiary and the Navis Primer). Playing Eldar or Tau or whatever else isn't really that interesting to me though, and I'd prefer FFG just focus on the lines they already have.

I don't think it would be too difficult to homebrew some xenos PCs if you really wanted to anyway.



#7 Dulahan

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:47 AM

I disagree strongly with the Craftworld not being ideal PCs.  They're about as ideal as you could get for this system.

 

"Splats" that make REAL sense:  CHECK!

A "Sanity" system that could mean getting lost on a path and gaining more power in exchange for lack of any future versatility:  CHECK!   (This could easily represent getting lost and becoming an Exarch or Farseer in time… or spreading your wings amongst multiple paths and experiences and possibly becoming an Autarch)

 

Won't mix?  Why not… Eldar are a dying race, and tend to prefer accomplishing things with the minimum effort.  So if a team of 5 different Aspect Warriors plus a Warlock is enough… then by Khaine that's what will get sent!   Built in GM aid there too, that is.  Just like Deathwatch a reason for them to be acting together.  Stop thinking in terms of the wargame where squads are sent instead of small teams.

 

Agree on Harlequins being another great option for an Eldar game though.  But I'd prefer sourcebook to a gestalt Eldar setting and game.  But I disagree with them being "almost" Deathwatch.  Based on the fact that any time they show up, even Space Marines end up having trouble with Harlequins, or even lose.  These are pretty much the scariest Eldar around, and specialize in taking down Daemons… even able to take on Great Daemons at Troupe level.  No, this is at least Deathwatch level.



#8 Unholy_Ravager

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 10:26 AM

 Craftworld Eldar in my opinion do see like a strong option for an Eldar RPG. So do the Harlequin. They definately on the level of death watch.



#9 Kshatriya

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 02:32 PM

I'm working on a Harlequin Career for Rogue Trader.



#10 Blood Pact

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 05:05 PM

Dulahan said:

I disagree strongly with the Craftworld not being ideal PCs.  They're about as ideal as you could get for this system.

 

"Splats" that make REAL sense:  CHECK!

A "Sanity" system that could mean getting lost on a path and gaining more power in exchange for lack of any future versatility:  CHECK!   (This could easily represent getting lost and becoming an Exarch or Farseer in time… or spreading your wings amongst multiple paths and experiences and possibly becoming an Autarch)

 

Won't mix?  Why not… Eldar are a dying race, and tend to prefer accomplishing things with the minimum effort.  So if a team of 5 different Aspect Warriors plus a Warlock is enough… then by Khaine that's what will get sent!   Built in GM aid there too, that is.  Just like Deathwatch a reason for them to be acting together.  Stop thinking in terms of the wargame where squads are sent instead of small teams.

 

Agree on Harlequins being another great option for an Eldar game though.  But I'd prefer sourcebook to a gestalt Eldar setting and game.  But I disagree with them being "almost" Deathwatch.  Based on the fact that any time they show up, even Space Marines end up having trouble with Harlequins, or even lose.  These are pretty much the scariest Eldar around, and specialize in taking down Daemons… even able to take on Great Daemons at Troupe level.  No, this is at least Deathwatch level.

Here's the thing, for a new game to be justified it need to be more original than, say "deathwatch with aliens". To tangent slightly, some could argue that OW isn't original enough, but there are quite an array of differences, the Deathwatch (and even the Astartes) and are a special operations force, while the guard are bog standard army. Of course you can play a squad on a commando-style mission, but overall they are still vastly different games.

Now getting back to my main point, Craftworld Eldar live in a caste-based society. A self imposed one, but I'm imclined to think that would make them more devoted to it, in a big way because it is how they deny the Thirst of Slaanesh (the Soulstone argueably just catches the soul upon death, and any Eldar living a live of gross decadance and hedonism would likely find themselves wasting away in time, like the Dark Eldar do). Caste based societies aren't known for a lot of mixing between said castes. Certainly some stratas of society could interact, Fairseers being the all around leaders could come in to a lot of contact, Warlocks as well, though perhaps leaning more toward association in tims of war. Guardians are everyday Eldar, who are on Paths that make them painters, chefs, of dancers, but if we're going to make this a war game, I'm not sure "OW with Eldar" is any better than an Eldar version of Deathwatch. Which is what I think an all Aspect Warrior game would play like. And Aspect Warriors are consumed by their calling, when they don the armour, which strikes me that they're not a social bunch. They don't go out for drinks with the gang when they're done practising the 1001 killing cuts of the Striking Scorpion. And of course, that's not getting to the relayively divergent power levels in the group, aspect warriors running around alongside.. guardian/potters?

And you've seen how FFG has been designing their game thus far. I absolutely cannot see them doing an "Eldar" book, and then producing further books which are all about Dark Eldar, Exodites, etc.

But the more I think about a Harlequin game, the more it interests me. Partly because they were portrayed quite nicely in the book about Inquisitor Czevak. You're right about power too. I was being far too conservative, basing off of their current tabletop stats, which are much less terrifying than they were in the past. And then suddenly realising that the same thing is done to Space Marines, so there's no need to tip-toe around this. Harlequins are damn scary, and I'd easily give a Troupe equal odds against a like number of Deathwatch (don't any of you dare tell AluminiumWolf I said this, I'd never hear the end of it! lol).



#11 Rawrsong

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:11 PM

Blood Pact said:

Harlequins are damn scary, and I'd easily give a Troupe equal odds against a like number of Deathwatch (don't any of you dare tell AluminiumWolf I said this, I'd never hear the end of it! lol).

 

 

But what fun would it be if AW didn't stop by and preach about the unstoppable manly awesomeness of Space Marines?  Seriously though, I think many people just want Eldar so they can play Space Elves.  However they don't seem to understand that a game about purely Craft World Space Elves would be extremely restrictive do to their culture.  A game about a Webway roving troupe of  Harlequins out fighting the forces of Chaos could be interesting to me at least.  With Harlequins there's even a built in and sensible excuse for Craftworld, Exodite, and Dark Eldar to all be working together as part of the same team.  Hell Harlequins have been known to pop out of the Webway and suddenly start fighting along side other races, especially if they're up against Chaos.   More importantly Harlequins in their service to the Laughing God tend to take on personalities that are closer to human and thus easier and more enjoyable to RP imo. 

 

Then again I'm not going to lie, bards are my favorite class and Wardancers have long been my favorite Warhammer unit.



#12 Dulahan

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 09:07 AM

Blood Pact - You're frankly, well, wrong.

 

Have you read the Eldar novels recently put out?  They can and do interact.  This isn't the sort of Caste Society you think of.  Even the Aspect Warriors who aren't Exarchs do hang out with others on any other number of paths.



#13 Adeptus-B

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 12:48 PM

The proper Space Marine response to the question "Where are the xenos?" is: "In my sights!"



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Posted 30 June 2012 - 04:13 PM

Blood Pact said:

Harlequins are damn scary, and I'd easily give a Troupe equal odds against a like number of Deathwatch (don't any of you dare tell AluminiumWolf I said this, I'd never hear the end of it! lol).

I don't have any problem with elfs being awesome IN THEIR OWN DAMN GAME!!!!!!!!!11111!!!

(Okay that isn't at all true - I'd like Marines to always be a Big Deal and a respectable threat, even if, in the end, in someone else's game they are eventually going to lose. But I have to accept that other people like their own factions as much as I like Space Marines, so if I was to get the Marines I want they should get the elfs they want as well).

I'd actually be fine with making regular Aspect Warriors as awesome as regular Space Marines (even as awesome as I think Space Marines should be), with the proviso that you wouldn't then encounter very many of them - so you'd get about as many Aspect Warriors in a given theatre of operations as there are Space Marines.

--

I'd like to see an Eldar game eventually. And now they are doing Eldar novels I guess there is a tiny chance we might see one.

Since I hold the position that what ever anyone says, Eldar are totally elves, like in Lord of the Rings, I would want an Eldar game to have a heavy Tolkein feel. So a Space Elf game should play out something like:-

+++++Quenta Silmarillion ("The History of the Silmarils"[5]), which makes up the bulk of the book, is a series of interconnected tales set in the First Age that make up the tragic saga of the three jewels, the Silmarils.
 
The Valar had attempted to fashion the world for Elves and Men, but Melkor continually destroyed their handiwork. After he destroyed the two lights that illuminated the world, the Valar removed to Aman, a continent to the west of Middle-earth, where they established their home called Valinor, illuminated by Two Trees, and left Middle-earth to darkness and Melkor. When stars began to shine and the Elves awoke, the Valar fought Melkor to keep the Elves safe, defeated and captured Melkor and then invited the Elves to live in Aman. Many Elves travelled to Aman, while others refused and still others stopped along the way, including the Elves who later became the Sindar, ruled by the Elf King Thingol and Melian, a Maia. Of the three tribes that set out, all of the Vanyar and Noldor, and many of the Teleri reached Aman.
 
In Aman, Fëanor, son of Finwë, King of the Noldor, created the Silmarils, jewels which glowed with the light of the Two Trees. Melkor, released after feigning repentance, destroyed the Two Trees with the help of Ungoliant, killed Finwë, stole the Silmarils, and fled to Middle-earth, where he attacked the Elvish kingdom of Doriath. He was defeated in the first of five battles of Beleriand, however, and barricaded himself in his northern fortress of Angband.
Fëanor and his sons swore an oath of vengeance against Melkor – and against anyone who withheld the Silmarils from them, even the Valar. Fëanor persuaded most of the Noldor to pursue Melkor, whom Fëanor renamed as Morgoth, into Middle-earth. Fëanor's sons seized ships from the Teleri, attacking and killing many of them, and left the other Noldor to make the voyage by foot. Upon arriving in Middle-earth, the Noldor under Fëanor attacked Melkor and defeated his host, though Fëanor was slain by Balrogs. After a period of peace, Melkor attacked the Noldor but was again defeated and besieged. Nearly 400 years later, he broke the siege and drove the Noldor back.
 
After the destruction of the Trees and the theft of the Silmaril, the Valar had created moon and sun, thereby also causing the awakening of Men, some of which later arrive in Beleriand and allied themselves to the Elves. Beren, a man who had survived the latest battle, wandered to Doriath, where he fell in love with the elf Lúthien, the king's daughter. The king sought to prevent their marriage by imposing what he believed an impossible task: retrieving one of the Silmarils from Melkor. But together, Beren and Lúthien embarked on this quest. Sauron, a powerful servant of Melkor, imprisoned them along the way; but they escaped, crept into Melkor's fortress, and stole a Silmaril from Melkor's crown. Having achieved the task, the first union of man and elf was formed, though Beren was soon mortally wounded and Lúthien also died of grief.
 
The Noldor, seeing that a mortal and an elf-woman could infiltrate Angband, perceived that Melkor was not invincible. They attacked again with a great army of Elves, Dwarves and Men. But they were deceived by Melkor, who had secretly darkened the hearts of many of the men. Thus it was that the Elvish host were utterly defeated, due in part to the treachery of some Men. However, many Men remained loyal to the Elves and were honoured thereafter.
None received more honour than the brothers Húrin and Huor. Melkor captured Húrin, and cursed him to watch the downfall of his kin. Húrin's son, Túrin Turambar, was sent to Doriath, leaving his mother and unborn sister behind in his father's kingdom (which had been overrun by the enemy). Túrin achieved many great deeds of valor, the greatest being the defeat of the dragon Glaurung. Despite his heroism, however, Túrin was plagued by the curse of Melkor, which led him unwittingly to murder his friend Beleg and to marry and impregnate his sister Nienor, whom he had never met before, and who had lost her memory through Glaurung's enchantment. Before their child was born, the bewitchment was lifted as the dragon lay dying. Nienor, realizing what grew within her, took her own life. Upon learning the truth, Túrin threw himself on his sword.
 
Huor's son, Tuor, became involved in the fate of the hidden Noldorin kingdom of Gondolin. He married the elf Idril, daughter of Turgon, Lord of Gondolin (the second union between Elves and Men). When Gondolin fell, betrayed from within by Maeglin, Tuor saved many of its inhabitants from destruction. All of the Elvish kingdoms in Beleriand eventually fell, and the refugees fled to a haven by the sea created by Tuor. The son of Tuor and Idril, Eärendil the Half-elven, was betrothed to Elwing, herself descended from Beren and Lúthien. Elwing brought Eärendil the Silmaril of Beren and Lúthien, and using its light Eärendil travelled across the sea to Aman to seek help from the Valar. The Valar obliged; they attacked and defeated Melkor, completely destroying his fortress Angband and sinking most of Beleriand; and they expelled Melkor from Arda. This ended the First Age of Middle-earth.
 
Eärendil and Elwing had two children: Elrond and Elros. As descendants of immortal elves and mortal men, they were given the choice of which lineage to belong to: Elrond chose to belong to the Elves, his brother to Men. Elros became the first king of Númenor.+++++
 
Only with laser guns and space ships.
 
Course, I'm not really an Eldar fan, so no one should listen to me on this.



#15 Dulahan

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 06:23 PM

Hell, even in the novels the Aspect Warriors are a TINY portion of the Eldar Forces.  With a squad only 5 or so including an Exarch.  I don't think it's a stretch at all to say they're on a level with Space Marines.  Not as strong, but much quicker and possessed of technology that gives them a rather nice equalizer.  Even in Space Marine books when they show up, they're something the Marines take note of, and generally break a sweat against, if not outright struggle.  But the point is there aren't much more of them than there are Marines.  They basically take on a similar tactical role to Marines too, they're the ELITE special forces of the Eldar armies.  The most commonly encountered because of how the Eldar Operate.  Likely any army mustered will be filled with Aspect warriors entirely until they genuinely need Wraithguard and Guardians (With the exception of if they need some tanks or something). 

 

So yeah, dying race.  Aspect Warriors are a BIG DEAL.  Ditto Incubi for the Dark Eldar (who are pretty much Dark Striking Scorpions at this point)



#16 Blood Pact

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 07:01 PM

Dulahan said:

Blood Pact - You're frankly, well, wrong.

 

Have you read the Eldar novels recently put out?  They can and do interact.  This isn't the sort of Caste Society you think of.  Even the Aspect Warriors who aren't Exarchs do hang out with others on any other number of paths.

I stand corrected then.

But I'm also still waiting for someone, anyone, to suggest what you'd actually do with Craftworld Eldar to make a game.



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Posted 01 July 2012 - 03:14 AM

Blood Pact said:

But I'm also still waiting for someone, anyone, to suggest what you'd actually do with Craftworld Eldar to make a game.

 

Okay, so the Eldar are heavily in to farseeing.

The most powerful minds in the galaxy are constantly teasing at the strands of fate in order to unravel, and maybe predict, maybe control, the future.

Eldar play the long game. Sometimes they play very long games indeed.

One of the longer games they are playing (although certainly not the longest) is the hope that when all the souls of the Eldar race are contained within the Infinity Circuit, a powerful new gestalt being will form and come to challenge the might of Slaanesh. In the dreams of the farseers, this being is already known as the God Ynnead.

But this is by no means a certain outcome. Most Eldar seers predict that many other elements must be put in place to ensure the creation, and eventual victory, of the God of the Dead. But there is… Disagreement as to what must be done.

Many competing schools of thought have formed around the visions of the more powerful or charismatic seers. And all attempt to remake the universe to the design of their founders.

So what happens in the game is that the party, consisting of Eldar from many paths who have sworn themselves to one of these schools, fly around the galaxy completing seemingly arbitrary tasks assigned to them by their leader, which, they are assured, will put in to motion chains of events which will eventually free the Eldar from their great curse. These tasks can be large or small.

Adventures might include:-

Ensuring a particular mon-keigh student wins the combat pentathlon event at the Schola Progenium sports day on Salsa Secondus.

Starting (or stopping) a major war between rival Tau factions.

Staging a particularly unsuccessful performance art installation at a prestigious facility on one of the more fashionable craftworlds (this is going to be enormously embarassing for all involved).

Surveying and constructing new webway passages in very precise configurations through very dangerous stretches of the warp.

Causing it to become very fashionable for Orks of Warrrggghhh Snashgal to wear a blue bandanna.

Figuring out how to move a medium sized star 2 AU spinward.

Complicating matters, agents of rival schools are also active, and either want to stop you or create a different outcome. They are equally as convinced that they are right, and will use all means at their disposal to ensure the correct configuration is achieved.



#18 Alpha Chaos 13

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 02:20 AM

For anyone who cares to look, I posted my thoughts to this post on the Rogue Trader forum.



#19 Blood Pact

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 03:41 AM

Thankyou both. But AlphaChaos, you didn't really answer the question, just said you don't like playing humans, and that you think Tau would be a good choice. Wolf, you came a lot closer tot he mark, but what you basically described is "Dark Heresy with Eldar".

If FFG is going to make an entirely new game, with Xenos, they're not going to be stupid about it if they want longterm viability as a product. They're not going to rely entirely on the fact that you're playing whatever to sell it. It's gotta be new, it's gotta be at least kinda original, in comparison to the other lines already out (and there are far fewer similarities between any two of the game-lines currently out, than there are similarities.. aside from 4/5 being Imperium focused). It's not enough that people want a Xenos game, because if it doesn't have more to it than just playing Xenos, the enthusiasm is going to try up really fast. And you've certainly both seen how the forums can quickly turn in to a pack of bitching, whining, little ingrates. SignoftheSerpent will be leading them all, screaming about how we've been cheated yet again, because the game is basically (like I've been saying) just "Deathwatch with Crisis Suits", or whatever.

So far the only idea that really comes close to hitting the nail is a Harlequin game.



#20 Capt_Dymock

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Posted 03 July 2012 - 06:58 AM

AluminiumWolf said:

Okay, so the Eldar are heavily in to farseeing.

The most powerful minds in the galaxy are constantly teasing at the strands of fate in order to unravel, and maybe predict, maybe control, the future.

Eldar play the long game. Sometimes they play very long games indeed.ct configuration is achieved.

 

I'm imagining the Eldar game is nothing but extended tests 






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