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#1 Hadesdrew

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 05:44 PM

 I had a disagreement with a member of my deathwatch group. I'm the GM and I said one of our members is a girl(since she is a girl). The member said thats impossible. I said he was kidnapped on a mission and for god knows why they gave him a sex change. Because of this she never removes any armor around anyone to prevent them from finding out.  He says still impossible. Then I asked, If a Space Marine gets a sex change he's still a man? What do you think of this



#2 Kshatriya

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:34 PM

Slaaneshi abomination. Purge with fire.



#3 professor_kylan

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:38 PM

Personal opinion? I'm siding with the player.

That being said, I've got $1 that this threat is going to become a battleground any time now.

Can anyone hear the creaking sound of ceramite under the strain of over a ton of raw, steroid inflated meat? Awolf is on his way…



#4 Hadesdrew

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 06:52 PM

 Like this is a serious question. I have two girls in my group that want to be girls. One will rage quit basically if she can't be. but then one side of my players is like NO BECAUSE LORE SAYS OTHERWISE. 



#5 professor_kylan

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:09 PM

This is actually a question that comes up a lot, believe it or not, and I know from personal experience that it can be a massive issue for groups.

There are a number of threads on these here forums that talk about it, and many of them tend to end up as flame wars between "Female marines are okay!" and "Nuh huh! Lore says otherwise!".

It's honestly worth your time to go through the archives, looking for these threads (largely in Gamemasters and the core Deathwatch page, from memory) and read through all of the solutions posted, cause there have been quite a lot. There are a lot of issues with all of them, you'll need to just find the one that works for your group.

 

The most common suggestion you'll find is playing an Inquisitor or Sister of Battle, using the Dark Heresy Ascension rules. They tend to be pretty overpowered, but if your ladies are the sort who are more interested in roleplay rather than having the biggest numbers, there shouldn't be an issue. You can look at changing the lore to suit, which will cause a lot of arguments amongst the purists. I've suggested before allowing female Deathwatch chapter serfs to enter missions as vehicle pilots - they might not be as personally powerful as an Astartes, but when you put them in a Razorback or a Stormraven, it kinda evens out :P

If you were more interested in equality, I could *coughcough feedback would be nice as well as outsourcing playtesting* suggest that you check out my Unified 40k rpf rules that I'm working on, which would allow your players to bring in humans at about a similar level to the astartes. But that's just a crazy and really good suggestion from someone as intelligent as they are handsome. Please do not make the obvious connection and follow up insult from that statement, it'll demean us both :P

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=213&efcid=3&efidt=668600



#6 Algus

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 04:25 AM

Ultimately, it is your game and you and your group should play it in the way that is most fun to you, regardless of what a bunch of canonistas on a web forum have to say about it.

That said however, I do think you are losing some of the flavor of the setting if you introduce something like female Space Marines into the game.  Even if you stick with just Deathwatch rules, it is a small thing to say that the female characters are still Sisters of Battle.  The Adeptas Sororitas are pretty cool and can add a lot of flavor to a game. 

If your players are open to playing fast and loose with the lore and you don't mind changing the setting though, you could always introduce previously unknown chapters of Space Marines that are all female.   Maybe even have it involve the Lost Primarchs.  



#7 HappyDaze

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:35 AM

Hadesdrew said:

 Like this is a serious question. I have two girls in my group that want to be girls. One will rage quit basically if she can't be. but then one side of my players is like NO BECAUSE LORE SAYS OTHERWISE. 

Your best bet will be to tell the player that you're altering the 'official' lore for your game (as the GM, your word can override anything written in the books). I'd personally go with the idea that female space marines have always existed as a largely unmentioned minority (rarely more than 10% of any Chapter) rather than a special snowflake sex change origin to explain the two characters.


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#8 Hadesdrew

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 09:50 AM

 Ok so I took the make her an inquisition idea. Gave her plus 10 to all stats, more votes in any decision (like two votes instead of one), worse armor, lowered toughness like 20, gave her +3 psy rating, and 1.5X requisition for each mission. Keeps standard pskyer chart, gets deathwatch and spacemarine charts too. Was going to make her a special chapter chart for inquisition. He proceeded to quit imediately because there was a girl in the group. 



#9 Charmander

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 10:52 AM

Hadesdrew said:

 Ok so I took the make her an inquisition idea. Gave her plus 10 to all stats, more votes in any decision (like two votes instead of one), worse armor, lowered toughness like 20, gave her +3 psy rating, and 1.5X requisition for each mission. Keeps standard pskyer chart, gets deathwatch and spacemarine charts too. Was going to make her a special chapter chart for inquisition. He proceeded to quit imediately because there was a girl in the group. 

A word of warning, the +3 Psy Rating is pretty hardcore, psykers can wreck things pretty badly in my experience as is.  That would put them high on the damage output and low on the damage threshold chart for certain.  Good luck!

As for the person quitting, his loss, not yours.



#10 Gaire

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 11:23 AM

 Actually, the /tg/ board on 4chan had a discussion about this a few weeks ago. We came to the conclusion that your best bet for having a female character who is close to on par with the Astartes without resorting to Ascension is to take the Black Templar chapter, fluff it as a Sister of Battle Palatine, and provide Sororita relics and cybernetics to bring her up to par with a Space Marine or replicate the marine's gear/implants. Then you just limit the specialties, as there are no Sororita psykers or techmarines. Apothecary is fine as a Hospitaler.



#11 Hadesdrew

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 11:35 AM

Gaire said:

 Actually, the /tg/ board on 4chan had a discussion about this a few weeks ago. We came to the conclusion that your best bet for having a female character who is close to on par with the Astartes without resorting to Ascension is to take the Black Templar chapter, fluff it as a Sister of Battle Palatine, and provide Sororita relics and cybernetics to bring her up to par with a Space Marine or replicate the marine's gear/implants. Then you just limit the specialties, as there are no Sororita psykers or techmarines. Apothecary is fine as a Hospitaler.

See I couldn't do that because she's a pskyer. Currently she's a raven guard psyker. 



#12 Charmander

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 12:46 PM

Gaire said:

 Actually, the /tg/ board on 4chan had a discussion about this a few weeks ago. We came to the conclusion that your best bet for having a female character who is close to on par with the Astartes without resorting to Ascension is to take the Black Templar chapter, fluff it as a Sister of Battle Palatine, and provide Sororita relics and cybernetics to bring her up to par with a Space Marine or replicate the marine's gear/implants. Then you just limit the specialties, as there are no Sororita psykers or techmarines. Apothecary is fine as a Hospitaler.

As much as I fear the fact that something came from 4chan, this seems like a solid idea.  It places the characters on par with the rest of the group and uses some reasonable fluff as to how she got there.

Now the trick to stay within the fluff is to figure out why the Sisters are hanging out with the Ordo Xenos, or vice versa (which isn't too hard to overcome, but should be considered IMO).



#13 Decessor

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 02:10 PM

On this very forum I've seen examples of "reskinned" deathwatch classes. e.g. An Inquisitorial genetically enhanced biomancer who statwise is a librarian. No mechanical change even required, just respray and play.



#14 Face Eater

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 02:46 PM

Here's the star trek background answer for you.

During warp travel, a small group of Raven Guard are buffetted by a warp storm into a super rare anomaly there Geller field flickers breifly and they are forced out of warp. Amazingly a small number of the crew seemed to have been replaced by a female version of themselves. One of them was a Batttle brother themself and they are suprised as surprised to be surrounded by 'male' marines as the rest of the battle brothers are surpised to have a one of theirs become a sister.

The new found sister is contained untill a surprisingly near Inquisitor comes aboard. The Inquisitor explains that in strictest confidence that he is a member of Ordo Dimensis. A secret ordo that monitors and defends against threats from entire alternative dimensions.These are almost impossible to reach but it seems that many are so closely tied that the events are same, people are the same, often with only one small change, one slight decision or chance event in the past. It seems that the new battle sister is from what the Inquisitor calls universe 63, identical but for the fact that, by mere chance of biology the Emperor of their Universe is an Emperess which has changed the Imperium to being entirely matriachial. Rather than waste the resource and the Inquisitor pulls some strings to allow the new found Battle sister to serve in the equally secretive Deathwatch.

Long story short if a player doesn't want to play a male and want's to play a Space Marine then you might have come up with a crazy answer but the 40k galaxy is a massive place with lots of weird sci-fi going on.



#15 Kshatriya

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 05:12 PM

Hadesdrew said:

 Ok so I took the make her an inquisition idea. Gave her plus 10 to all stats, more votes in any decision (like two votes instead of one), worse armor, lowered toughness like 20, gave her +3 psy rating, and 1.5X requisition for each mission. Keeps standard pskyer chart, gets deathwatch and spacemarine charts too. Was going to make her a special chapter chart for inquisition. He proceeded to quit imediately because there was a girl in the group. 

Do not mix Ascension with anything. Psychic Inquisitors are broken. Psychic Inquisitors are about 500 times better at psychic-ing than Librarians.

That being said I wasn't clear if you just told the female player "you're a girl so your character is too" or if she requested playing a female abomination and you were trying to be obliging. I'm glad it was the latter!

There are any number of reasons a Palatine would be with Ordo Xenos, not the least being because an Ordo Xenos Inquisitor requisitioned her for his retinue.



#16 Kshatriya

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 05:14 PM

Also the guy quit because there was a girl PLAYER in the group? I'm sure he's very popular with the ladies. *headdesk*



#17 Captain Ventris

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 07:59 AM

Kshatriya said:

Also the guy quit because there was a girl PLAYER in the group? I'm sure he's very popular with the ladies. *headdesk*

He bears the mighty Sleazegal, the god of all neck-beards on his face, though.



#18 borithan

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 02:03 AM

Hmm… either "This is my world, and there are female Space Marines" without going for weird sex changes, or just go with the whole thing that SPace Marines are guys. Then explain to the female players who cannot play male Space Marines that their gender makes no difference. Though there are no female Space Marines, even if there were they would be exactly the same as male Marines personality wise (or much difference physically either, after the transformations their bodies go through).



#19 RichardX1

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 07:16 AM

 I've often pondered if something like this is what happened to the two Lost Legions (or at least their Primarchs)…



#20 herichimo

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Posted 04 July 2012 - 04:29 PM

Doubt it.

Geneseed is based off of Primarch DNA which is based on the Emperors DNA. The Emperor was a man.

Activating, growing, and controling geneseed inside a person requires male hormones, not enough of the right ones or too much of the wrong ones and supplicant dies.

Space Marines continue to receive chemical and hormonal treatment for the rest of their life to keep their body and organs functioning correctly and to stave off rejection, hormones not agreeing with geneseed would continue to complicate this.

Sexual dimorphism in human beings would mean a "female space marine" would be inferior to a male space marine, the bones wouldn't grow as large and be weaker, muscle mass would be smaller and less efficient, bone and muscle mass would begin to deteriorate with age (menopause) without ever increasing amounts of hormone treatment above and beyond what normal space marines receive, and there would be less room in the main body cavity (ribs) for all the organs. In a universe where a person can be executed for attempting to understand how a light bulb works I doubt anyone would be "touchy-feely" enough to create an inferior female brand of space marines just to make that half of our species happy.

(caveat to stall off rage-responses)
But, if you want to do it in your games I can't stop you. Although I prefer to play the game based upon the established setting myself.






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