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Cards that Name Themselves and Every Card You Control


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#1 karat

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:20 AM

 Two rules questions:

1) On cards that refer to their own name with no other explanatory text, do they refer to themselves only or any card with that name?  One example is the classic Terror of the Tides, which gives The Terror of the Tides 4 wounds.  I've seen a lot of discussion in the archives, but not the resolution.  On the assumption that giving wounds is a "then" effect, not a cost, can it affect another card named "The Terror of the Tides?"  (I know that costs can only be paid by cards you control, but I'm referring to effects that are not part of a cost.  Besides, I interpret the wounds as *not* being part of a cost.  If someone thinks it is part of the cost, that doesn't dodge the issue -- could I wound another copy (potentially already wounded) that I control, since it is not unique?)  In short, does it need to target itself, a card with that name that I control, or any card with that name? There are other examples, but that's the most classic one that illustrates the question.

2) Do you control cards that are in out of play areas?  In particular, does "every card you control" (especially "if every card you control is <faction>") only refer to cards that are "in play" and not cards that are resourced, in discard, etc?  The core rulebook states "When a card comes into play, it does so under the control of its owner, unless otherwise specified by the effect bringing the card into play. Some effects also allow a player to take control of an opponent’s cards."  On the other hand, the FAQ states: "You may only pay costs with cards you control. You may never exhaust, drain a domain, drive insane, sacrifice, or
otherwise use or alter the game state of any card you do not control, as the means of a paying the cost of an effect."  The former implies that cards come under control when they enter play (what about when they leave play?).  The latter implies that you control your resourced cards.  Presumably, there is an interpretation that everyone uses, even if it's not explicitly clear in the rules/FAQ, but I don't know what that is.  In short, what cards does "every card you control" count?

 



#2 TheProfessor

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 09:30 AM

karat said:

 Two rules questions:

1) On cards that refer to their own name with no other explanatory text, do they refer to themselves only or any card with that name?  One example is the classic Terror of the Tides, which gives The Terror of the Tides 4 wounds.  I've seen a lot of discussion in the archives, but not the resolution.  On the assumption that giving wounds is a "then" effect, not a cost, can it affect another card named "The Terror of the Tides?"  (I know that costs can only be paid by cards you control, but I'm referring to effects that are not part of a cost.  Besides, I interpret the wounds as *not* being part of a cost.  If someone thinks it is part of the cost, that doesn't dodge the issue -- could I wound another copy (potentially already wounded) that I control, since it is not unique?)  In short, does it need to target itself, a card with that name that I control, or any card with that name? There are other examples, but that's the most classic one that illustrates the question.

2) Do you control cards that are in out of play areas?  In particular, does "every card you control" (especially "if every card you control is <faction>") only refer to cards that are "in play" and not cards that are resourced, in discard, etc?  The core rulebook states "When a card comes into play, it does so under the control of its owner, unless otherwise specified by the effect bringing the card into play. Some effects also allow a player to take control of an opponent’s cards."  On the other hand, the FAQ states: "You may only pay costs with cards you control. You may never exhaust, drain a domain, drive insane, sacrifice, or
otherwise use or alter the game state of any card you do not control, as the means of a paying the cost of an effect."  The former implies that cards come under control when they enter play (what about when they leave play?).  The latter implies that you control your resourced cards.  Presumably, there is an interpretation that everyone uses, even if it's not explicitly clear in the rules/FAQ, but I don't know what that is.  In short, what cards does "every card you control" count?

 

1)  The FAQ addresses this for you:

in Section 1.13 (working effects) we find:

A card that is self-referential (that is, has card text that refers to itself by Title) refers only to itself, and not to any other copies of that card. Any self-referential effect on a card concerning the act of playing that card, or putting that card into play, is active as the card is being played or put into play.

 

2) This one is not quite as specific.  In the rulebook we find:

When a card comes into play, it does so under the control of its owner, unless otherwise specified by the effect bringing the card into play. Some effects also allow a player to take control of an opponent’s cards.

I can't find any specific definition of "control", but every use of it references a card in play.  I have always played it as though only in-play cards have controllers (as opposed to "owners"), and this seems to be consistent with the usage in the rulebook and FAQ.



#3 karat

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 12:02 PM

TheProfessor said:

karat said:

 

 Two rules questions:

1) On cards that refer to their own name with no other explanatory text, do they refer to themselves only or any card with that name?  One example is the classic Terror of the Tides, which gives The Terror of the Tides 4 wounds.  I've seen a lot of discussion in the archives, but not the resolution.  On the assumption that giving wounds is a "then" effect, not a cost, can it affect another card named "The Terror of the Tides?"  (I know that costs can only be paid by cards you control, but I'm referring to effects that are not part of a cost.  Besides, I interpret the wounds as *not* being part of a cost.  If someone thinks it is part of the cost, that doesn't dodge the issue -- could I wound another copy (potentially already wounded) that I control, since it is not unique?)  In short, does it need to target itself, a card with that name that I control, or any card with that name? There are other examples, but that's the most classic one that illustrates the question.

2) Do you control cards that are in out of play areas?  In particular, does "every card you control" (especially "if every card you control is <faction>") only refer to cards that are "in play" and not cards that are resourced, in discard, etc?  The core rulebook states "When a card comes into play, it does so under the control of its owner, unless otherwise specified by the effect bringing the card into play. Some effects also allow a player to take control of an opponent’s cards."  On the other hand, the FAQ states: "You may only pay costs with cards you control. You may never exhaust, drain a domain, drive insane, sacrifice, or
otherwise use or alter the game state of any card you do not control, as the means of a paying the cost of an effect."  The former implies that cards come under control when they enter play (what about when they leave play?).  The latter implies that you control your resourced cards.  Presumably, there is an interpretation that everyone uses, even if it's not explicitly clear in the rules/FAQ, but I don't know what that is.  In short, what cards does "every card you control" count?

 

 

1)  The FAQ addresses this for you:

in Section 1.13 (working effects) we find:

 

A card that is self-referential (that is, has card text that refers to itself by Title) refers only to itself, and not to any other copies of that card. Any self-referential effect on a card concerning the act of playing that card, or putting that card into play, is active as the card is being played or put into play.

 

 

2) This one is not quite as specific.  In the rulebook we find:

 

When a card comes into play, it does so under the control of its owner, unless otherwise specified by the effect bringing the card into play. Some effects also allow a player to take control of an opponent’s cards.

 

I can't find any specific definition of "control", but every use of it references a card in play.  I have always played it as though only in-play cards have controllers (as opposed to "owners"), and this seems to be consistent with the usage in the rulebook and FAQ.

1) Thanks.  I skimmed the FAQ but I failed to notice that paragraph.  I figured it must be covered somewhere, but I failed to find it on my initial attempt.

2) I was leaning to that interpretation (I also quoted the same part of the rulebook in my question), but I was hung up on the portion of the FAQ - "You may only pay costs with cards you control." ( also quoted above), which implied to me that you controlled the cards in your domain.  There were two bits of text that each implied something different but were not explicitly contradicting.  Common sense dictates that you should be able to pay the resource cost of a card by draining one of your domains, even though you technically do not "control" them; however, if you're trying to construct a definition of "control" that can confuse the issue.  Two implications:

a) I will play as if the FAQ said "You may only pay costs with cards you control *or one of your domains*" (addition mine, for the pedant in me, since technically you don't control the cards in your domain).  Alternately, if there's another way of thinking about it, I'm curious to hear it.

b) I will take cards that say "If all cards you control are <faction>" to only refer to cards in play, not resources, discard pile, etc.  So, even if I have a multi-faction deck, if all cards outside that faction (including neutrals) have left play, the text applies.



#4 .Zephyr.

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Posted 28 June 2012 - 07:29 PM

 This is not about domains. Everything before "to" is a cost. So when card says "Sacrifice character to draw a card" you have to pay with your character.



#5 Penfold

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 05:35 AM

 You control all cards you own unless there is an effect which has switched control.

Cards only reference cards in play unless it specifically says otherwise. So while you "control" your resources and your domain, and your discard pile etc. unless a card specifically names an out of play area its effect only refers to cards in play that you control.



#6 karat

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 10:05 AM

Penfold said:

 You control all cards you own unless there is an effect which has switched control.

Cards only reference cards in play unless it specifically says otherwise. So while you "control" your resources and your domain, and your discard pile etc. unless a card specifically names an out of play area its effect only refers to cards in play that you control.

Kudos.  That's a very clean solution, and it's consistent with the FAQ:

"Additionally, cards that are in play (or
event cards that are played) do not
interact with cards that are out of play
unless they specifically refer to an out of
play state they will interact with."



#7 jhaelen

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Posted 01 July 2012 - 08:55 PM

Penfold said:

 You control all cards you own unless there is an effect which has switched control.

Unfortunately, Conspiracy cards are an exception to this. It was ruled that they don't have a controller.



#8 Penfold

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Posted 02 July 2012 - 05:43 AM

 You are correct, thanks for adding that exception.






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