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Ogryn - What they are vs what they should be…


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#1 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 03:02 AM

Hi everyone,

Before we get started let me just say that I am starting this thread as a fan of Only War, not as an official voice of FFG. I may have written parts of Only War, but I do not speak for or on behalf of FFG. Furthermore this discussion is about an area of the book I did not write, that being character creation, and the Ogryn character class specifically.

So, Ogryn.

Ogryn are huge. That sounds like an obvious statement, but think about it more closely. Ogryn are bigger than Marines. They're even bigger than some Ork Warbosses. They're quite simply enormous, and I (and a lot of people, gauging the comments I've seen) don't feel Only War's character creation rules rightly reflect what an Ogryn is in 40K. This would also apply to the Ogryn adversary profile in Chapter 11.

So the question comes down to what should an Ogryn be? What should it start with (wounds, toughness and so on).

Let's start by looking at the career itself:
 

  • +10 Strength
  • +10 Toughness
  • -15 Intelligence
  • Size (Hulking)
  • Unnatural Strength (+2)
  • Unnatural Toughness (+2)
  • Wounds: 1d5+15

To me, this is Ogryn-Lite. The +10 Str/Tgh are ok, but the Size thing bothers me. I'm not kidding when I say Ogryn dwarf most other standard infantry in 40K. They're not Marine-sized. They're bigger than Marines. Size (Enormous) is the only fit here.

Now the downside to Size (Enormous) is it makes Ogryn faster on their feet, and that doesn't ring true to me. For that reason I'd suggest that alongside their -15 Intelligence that they also have -10 Agility. Size (Enormous) also makes Ogryn easier to hit, so that's a bit of extra 'self balancing'.

The Unnaturals are also woefully inadequate, and as you cannot improve them via xp expenditure, they really should start higher. I think that +4 for both of them would be the way to go, and I don't think a further downside is required here.

Finally the wounds. Marines get between 1d5+15 and 1d5+18 for their starting wounds. Ogryn are significantly more durable (outside of armour) than Marines. I really do think that the minimum for Ogryn should be 1d5+20, but even 1d5+30 wouldn't be out of place.


So my eventual solution would be:
 

  • +10 Strength
  • +10 Toughness
  • -15 Intelligence
  • -10 Agility
  • Size (Enormous)
  • Unnatural Strength (+4)
  • Unnatural Toughness (+4)
  • Wounds: 1d5+25


The Ogryn in the Chapter 11 would have a base starting wounds of 30, plus whatever edits these changes would require.


But those are my thoughts on what Ogryn should be, however they may not be your thoughts. So, I'd like to hear other solutions to this problem and even people who don't think the Ogryn (as written) are a problem. This is a big thing to get right, so let's go over it carefully.

BYE

 


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#2 Durandal7

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 03:26 AM

I'd be inclined to further curb their intelligence by saying their base intelligence is 10+d5 MAX at starting and that Intelligence advances are more expensive or maybe that it can only be advanced by various grades of BONE implants. They are meant to be thick as a brick and just as hard. Possibly even hit their Fellowship?

 

I'd also be inclined to make the Ripper Gun a heavy weapon! No way your average guardsman is going to be able to fire it, let alone lift it! They would then need Bulging Biceps talent from the off to balance that, but again, not unreasonable.

 

Other than those further suggestions, I'd say you've hit it on the head H.B.M.C.


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#3 Bassemandrh

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 03:34 AM

I would think this would make them even stronger in comparison to other "careers" if this is DH level of XP. They are just as good if not better than DW spacemarines statwise, and you don't throw Spacemarines into an Acolyte cell even without their gear.

Might aswell just make Ogryns an NPC so they can be properly statted without breaking the balance of power in a group.



#4 MorioMortis

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 03:36 AM

The thing is, if you give the Ogryns too much Unnatural characteristics, they become ridiculously good at absorbing damage. With UT 4, you can easily get a TB of 7 or 8 at the start. With the starting flak armor, that's a soak of 11 to 12 points, which makes them immune to lasguns. If they advance toughness, and get an ogryn sized carapace (unlikely, but Ogryns can be quite convincing sometimes), you can get up to 16 of soak, and take no damage from the average bolter or hellgun shot. I think this achieves the contrary of what the Ogryn is supposed to be doing; they should soak up a lot of damage, but not ignore too much. On the other hand, the increased toughness would make Ogryns as tough as marines, which isn't bad in itself, but is rather not on the same scale as the other guardsmen.

As far as strength is concerned, I don't see any major problem with more bonuses, apart from the fact that Ogryns will be monsters in melee as long as they can hit, which is perfectly fine (they should be able to kill Ork nobs and duel Bosses and the larger nids in melee).


The stupid must be bashed upon the head with the Mallet of Wisdom until their heads are inflated with knowledge.

 

Words to live (and die) by : "I have officially Been out-rogue tradered!  As always, one must always assume that no matter how grand your plan is, it's never enough!" - RogalDorn1


#5 qcipher

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:05 AM

I haven't gotten my copy yet, but since these are supposed to be playable beginning PC level characters, that sounds about right.  They have advantages that the 'Little uns' don't have and have disadvantages as well.

As long as they can improve with XP to levels higher in Str and T than other humans (which it sounds like they can), plus have the unnatural at 2 higher I'd be fine with it.  If they could actually increase those Unnaturals with XP later on that might be the only thing I'd say they should have, but even then it's not that big of a deal.  They'd still make great shock troops.



#6 Shadow Walker

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:11 AM

I think that current Ogryn is not even lite version but baby Ogryn, at best teenager. So lets see what Ogryns are in fluff: ten feet tall = size enormous, stronger even than Space Marine in Power Armour and able to kill Ork warboss with single headbutt (see latest codex Imperial Guard) = unnatural S 5, able to srug off small arms fire (see latest codex Imperial Guard) and tougher than unarmoured Space Marine = unnatural T 5, slower in reaction than average human = Ag - 15, dumb = Int -20, very hard to kill = starting wounds 30 + 1d5.
 



#7 Dulahan

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 06:46 AM

Yeah, these ones are jokes.  Baby Ogryn as someone said… Or put a different way:  This is barely more than a normal human.  Like, this is what I'd think a heavily chem or gene-bulked  'gladiator' normal human would look like, stats wise.  Not an Ogryn.

I'll first go full disclosure that I don't think they should be included in a Roleplaying Game as PC options at all.  I mean seriously, these things are incapable of speaking in complete sentences!  Even the BONE implants that make them a BIT smarter only brings them up to toddler level intelligence as far as roleplaying goes.  In my experience that's going to be disruptive even under a good player.  And mainly going to attract players who are just there for being powerful.   Plus they tend to operate in their own units (Admittedly, this goes down a slippery slope, since the same is true of Storm Troopers) unless a Bodyguard for an Officer.

 

That being said, I'd still much rather see them represented as they should be. In Disciples of the Dark Gods (Only book I could find stats in) An Ogryn NPC (Disciples of the Dark Gods, p89) has Unnatural Str AND Toughness at X2. Plus 48 Str, and 52 Toughness. AND still has Hulking. In Black Crusade the UNs would go dow to only being a +2 thing, but still… (And admittedly, we don't know if the one from the preview rolled low on Stat Gen, maybe the Ogryn range for S and T is 40-60?)… Oh, and they have 30 wounds. 

 

The wounds alone are a huge change - and impossible to emulate in OW.  And while the stats are possible in the system, good luck if you're doing the Die  Roll method, and in my experience most GMs do use it.   And even then, that's Twinked out like crazy (40 of your 100 going to those two, presuming a regimental +2 to T, and -2 to Str).  And by simple dint of how Unnaturals worked in DH, much more durable, requiring two levels of them to match.  Now, you can probably argue these ones have taken an advance or two from 'average' stats,the wounds can't be emulated in any way.

 

Second:  As was also said, these guys are supposed to be bigger than all but the largest Ork Warlords, and roughly on par with even them in size.  These ones, presuming baseline Average under Point Buy or Average Dice Rolls (equivalent of putting 10 into every stat, then spreading the remaining points equally), are slightly  -less- tough than a baseline Ork Boy in the same book, and only stronger by dint of Unnaturals.  And fortunate only to have slightly more wounds.  And they're much less tough than the Stormboy - an Elite for sure, but still a relatively common Ork type.  (Stormboys have two levels of Unnatural Toughness).  And then you get to the Mad Dok who has UN Str 4, and UN T 5.  Suddenly that Ogryn is a weedy runt compared to a more powerful Ork, nowhere NEAR "Bigger and Stronger than all but the largest Ork Bosses"  Consider Orks at higher levels grow and should get more.  Heck, this is even weaker than a Weirdboy.

 

Now, Hulking I don't oppose.  That's fine, and a good level.  To be at.  Remember Marines are only this in Power Armor, and are then at the low end of it, plus don't get treated as it in terms of drawbacks.  So it is fine, and still makes Sneaking VERY hard.

 

Third.  Balance?  Who cares if this is a better combat wombat than the rest of the squad?  DUH!  It's an Ogryn!  And  it's possible to have a LEMAN RUSS BATTLE TANK at Chargen in this system, I don't think the  Ogryn is even close to that strong.  Slightly less limited, but still! Heck, you could argue a 'correctly represented Ogryn' is a balancing factor to all the possible Vehicles other regiments get in regiments that don't get one, and if in one with one?  It's a nonissue.

 

Your heavy Weapons guy or Vehicle guy can still likely dish out just as much or more punishment.  I'd argue the Heavy Weapons Trooper is likely to do MORE damage than the Ogryn ever will, by simple dint they're a ranged combatant with the BS to do it!  And even if you don't use a regiment that starts with a vehicle.  If you're, say, Light infantry, and you have an Ogryn, kiss ever being able to sneak around and easily ambush or avoid confrontation good bye, you're gonna need the extra 'oomph' of an Ogryn - keep in mind this disadvantage exists even now, yet the Ogryn is so weak it's not capable of providing it!

 

And honestly, Str and Toughness are not the best stats.  Toughness helps with resisting damage, but something this big is gonna need it, they're targets!  And Str will help do more damage in Melee…  but if you're in Melee with an Ogryn and gonna be a threat to an Ogryn, you'd better hope the rest of the squad is running away, because it'll paste them.  Or it'll get creamed by the squad's Tank or Heavy Weapons Guy.

So anyhow, a minimum solution in my opinion would be upping their starting wounds, giving a BS penalty to help balance that of -5 or even -10, making the Ripper a heavy weapon equivalent (Which isn't going to be terribly game breaking with an Ogryn's terrible BS), and add in another level or two of Unnaturals in place of the Comrade stuff they get.  Does an Ogryn really need a Comrade, after all?  We already have two Specialties that don't get it  (Storm Trooper and Commissar), so it's not unprecedented.  And again, in closing, I will remind that many regiments can start with a  Tank, or at least Armored Troop Character, so an Ogryn is hardly more powerful than that no matter how good you make it.



#8 Darklordofbunnies

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:00 AM

MY thoughts on Ogryn

1) The size is fine, game rule indicate you can fit a small squad in a chimera. Any bigger and they couldn't sensibly fit in anything.

2) Spending xp to increase the Unnaturals is a good idea. Ogryn have significantly limited gear choices and the ability to boost their defining characteristics would be an excellent addition.

3) Ripper Gun should be heavy, Ogryn should have Bulging Biceps as a base feature. I'd also like a "Slug" option for the ripper for slightly better range but sacrificing scatter.

4) The stats are ok, the Int feels right and Fel being average is fine; they're dumb and a little ugly but all guardsmen kind of like the big goofs. I think clumsy is redundant as an Ogryn can't fire a lasgun as it's just too small for him to pull the trigger, or more large weapons need to be Ogryn-proof. I'd also like to see some Ogryn specific armors. They'd cost more, needing to be 5 times larger and all, but it would make more sense to me that way.

4.5) I think something to give Ogryn some semblance of being able to maintain there weapons and (hopefully) other Ogryn specific gear would be handy. A racial bonus on Tech-Use related  to anything specifically classed for Ogryn, not just any weapon that's Ogryn-proof. The IG codex makes mention of Ogryn scavenging gear and scraps to make their own armor and enhance their weapons so it feels better to me.

 5) BONEheads! I was extremely disappointed to see no mention of BONEhead upgrades and the closest option was a near-unique good cybernetic upgrade that no sane GM would let an Ogryn have.



#9 Dulahan

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:07 AM

Yeah, BONE should be an EXPENSIVE Ogryn Only upgrade.  I'm talking 2000 XP or the likes, but probably give +10 int and Fellowship, and maybe a talent or something.  Though said upgrades should be conditional…

 

Maybe a different way to handle it would be to treat it as a conditional Unnatural "Int" and "Fel" when leading other Ogryns and interacting with humans?  Like if it were an Unnatural Int 1 - the average Ogryn would still only have an Int Bonus of 2 or 3…



#10 Sister Callidia

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:20 AM

I like the fact that the Ogryn is significant stronger then the normal grunt but not in an overpowering way. Yes, they may be Ogryn lite compared to the tabletop system but you should not want to try to emulate the Tabletop game to close when it means sacrificing playability. The Ogryn Heavy as supposed here is just to unbalancing to be included in a team. You don't want them to outshine the more humble fitghters by that much. Let the Ogryn stay as is written right now.



#11 Dulahan

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:25 AM

Sister Callidia said:

 

I like the fact that the Ogryn is significant stronger then the normal grunt but not in an overpowering way. Yes, they may be Ogryn lite compared to the tabletop system but you should not want to try to emulate the Tabletop game to close when it means sacrificing playability. The Ogryn Heavy as supposed here is just to unbalancing to be included in a team. You don't want them to outshine the more humble fitghters by that much. Let the Ogryn stay as is written right now.

 

 

 

I again put this to you.  How are they so good compared to a Tank?  Which can also be gotten at Start.  Or a guardsman with a Lascannon - which could drop even a much tougher Ogryn quite easily.  Especially since they're easy targets.

 

The point is these Ogryn are so neutered that they don't even qualify as Ogryn by ANY of the fluff, let alone TT standards.  These Ogryn aren't even on the same page as many Orks.  Their intelligence alone should make them unplayable.  *which is admittedly in theme, and why I don't think they should be PCs to begin with.

 

These stats are Gene Bulked Humans, NOT Ogryn.



#12 Darklordofbunnies

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:38 AM

These are piss-poor Ogryns by the standards given by other FFG books, screw the minis or fluff these things suck compared to other Ogryn stats given by DH standards. These things are weaker than your average enhanced human from other systems and just plain pathetic when you consider the drawbacks being an Ogryn entails. Make them worthwhile to play or they will simply be a useless class, a burden to the party, and no one will use them.

Also, give ripper guns tearing, seriously guys.



#13 Darklordofbunnies

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:44 AM

Dulahan said:

Their intelligence alone should make them unplayable.  *which is admittedly in theme, and why I don't think they should be PCs to begin with.

 

 

Now I don't agree with this. No one is charging that Ogryn should be allowed to be regimental commanders (ok maybe I did do that one time, but his brain was really expensive and the hat looked good on him) but they should have a mandatory expenditure of starting xp to purchase another member of the group a small bonus as "handler" or something. Basically make them a bodyguard attachment to  commisar or sergeant and make them pay for it, this fits fluff and would help offset any percieved imbalance of buffing them to a reasonable level. Remove the comrade rules too, they way it's presented is  little silly for an Ogryn especially with the "little 'un" buff being so amazing.



#14 MorioMortis

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:13 AM

Darklordofbunnies said:

Remove the comrade rules too, they way it's presented is  little silly for an Ogryn especially with the "little 'un" buff being so amazing.

I agree with this; the Ogryn should not have a comrade, and the reduction in power and durability should be reinvested into making the Ogryn tougher and stronger.


The stupid must be bashed upon the head with the Mallet of Wisdom until their heads are inflated with knowledge.

 

Words to live (and die) by : "I have officially Been out-rogue tradered!  As always, one must always assume that no matter how grand your plan is, it's never enough!" - RogalDorn1


#15 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:41 AM

Durandal7 said:

I'd also be inclined to make the Ripper Gun a heavy weapon! No way your average guardsman is going to be able to fire it, let alone lift it! They would then need Bulging Biceps talent from the off to balance that, but again, not unreasonable.

 

Good point. I had not considered the Ripper Gun.

Ripper Guns are themselves the size of Marines (give the gun Hulking? ). Heavy Weapon is a must, as is an increase in the weight of the weapon. Right now it weighs less than the (much smaller) Heavy Stubber. If anything it should be 40kg, same as the Autocannon.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#16 Dulahan

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:48 AM

Darklordofbunnies said:

Dulahan said:

 

Their intelligence alone should make them unplayable.  *which is admittedly in theme, and why I don't think they should be PCs to begin with.

 

 

 

 

Now I don't agree with this. No one is charging that Ogryn should be allowed to be regimental commanders (ok maybe I did do that one time, but his brain was really expensive and the hat looked good on him) but they should have a mandatory expenditure of starting xp to purchase another member of the group a small bonus as "handler" or something. Basically make them a bodyguard attachment to  commisar or sergeant and make them pay for it, this fits fluff and would help offset any percieved imbalance of buffing them to a reasonable level. Remove the comrade rules too, they way it's presented is  little silly for an Ogryn especially with the "little 'un" buff being so amazing.

 

Well, the BONE mod is required for them to even be able to speak in REASONABLY complete sentences…  This isn't a matter of them being commanders or not, this is a matter of they just plain aren't much good for Roleplaying as. 



#17 H.B.M.C.

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 10:58 AM

I have to agree that Ogryns don't really need a Comrade. I'd rather have a (quite expensive) Bone 'Ead upgrade.

BYE


Matt Eustace. Contributing Author Credits: Church of the Damned, The Lathe Worlds, The Lathe Worlds - The Lost Dataslate, Only War Core Rulebook, Hammer of the Emperor, Shield of Humanity, Tome of Fate, Tome of Blood, Tome of Excess and Tome of Decay.

The views expressed in this post are my own. I do not speak for or on behalf of Fantasy Flight Games.


#18 Tremere777

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 09:30 AM

I agree…I think that Ogryn should have access to some sort of Bone' Ead advance or cybernetics purchase option.

 

I also think that they should have access to further levels of unnatural strength and toughness as future advances.



#19 Tremere777

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 09:31 AM

MorioMortis said:

Darklordofbunnies said:

Remove the comrade rules too, they way it's presented is  little silly for an Ogryn especially with the "little 'un" buff being so amazing.

 

I agree with this; the Ogryn should not have a comrade, and the reduction in power and durability should be reinvested into making the Ogryn tougher and stronger.

 

Indeed.



#20 Durandal7

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 10:51 AM

H.B.M.C. said:

Durandal7 said:

I'd also be inclined to make the Ripper Gun a heavy weapon! No way your average guardsman is going to be able to fire it, let alone lift it! They would then need Bulging Biceps talent from the off to balance that, but again, not unreasonable.


 

 

Good point. I had not considered the Ripper Gun.

Ripper Guns are themselves the size of Marines (give the gun Hulking? ). Heavy Weapon is a must, as is an increase in the weight of the weapon. Right now it weighs less than the (much smaller) Heavy Stubber. If anything it should be 40kg, same as the Autocannon.

BYE

 

Ripper guns are indeed somewhat…huge…40kg? Yeah sounds about right.

Though I think its range could do with a boost. Yes, it's a shotgun. That shoots cartridges the size of your head. Other shotguns also have a 30m range, so maybe 50m for the Ripper? Remember, most firefights happen under 50m, so all the lasgun/regular basic weapon toting IG are getting +10 to hit for short range too..

Another thing to bear in mind is that Ripper guns are meant to have RoF limiters (like Vietnam era M16's) to stop Ogryns excitedly shooting all their ammunition in the first five seconds of combat. Maybe a semi-auto option? Or are we taking as red that the 6 rounds for Full Auto is representative of a burst mode.


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