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Rank these in terms of powerful-ness


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#1 Emirikol

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 01:49 PM

I'm just pricing up the cost to create superior items:

How would you rank these in terms of powerful-ness?

  • Extra white die to attack
  • +1 DR
  • -1 CR
  • Pierce 1
  • +1 defensive/gain defensive
  • Vicious

Thanks!

 

jh



#2 odd

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 02:51 PM

 Mine would be:

+1 DR > pierce 1 > -1 CR > vicious > +1 def > 1white



#3 Emirikol

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:40 AM

}}

+1 DR > pierce 1 > -1 CR > vicious > +1 def > 1white

 

I think I would place DR further down.  Pierce and CR seem more powerful (especially when we're talking great weapons).  I"m not sure of the math on vicious, but you have to get a crit first, which makes it weaker.

The defense gives you a "free" buckler in effect. 

 

In relevance, my design was going to be a base +7.5gp for each up to 10gp for something more powerful (if there's /that/ much of a difference).

 

jh



#4 odd

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 07:10 AM

 Pierce isn't as powerful to be because it only does good against people wearing armor, +1DR is ALWAYS one more damage (unless they have an obserd amount toughness).  The CR is iffy, I think at the start it's less powerful, but maybe high game it's more powerful.



#5 Lord Rogal Dorn

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 04:49 PM

I would put crit the highest, then the rest of the list similar to what others have said. If you want a pretty good refrence for modifying weapons you could look at the dwarven engineering upgrades and costs.



#6 Spivo

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 08:19 PM

Emirikol said:

I'm just pricing up the cost to create superior items:

How would you rank these in terms of powerful-ness?

  • Extra white die to attack
  • +1 DR
  • -1 CR
  • Pierce 1
  • +1 defensive/gain defensive
  • Vicious

Thanks!

 jh

With comments…

1) -1 CR, simply because crits are awesome… best way to kill PC's, and I houserule crits on npc's equal wounds, to make it more important to cause crits. Without HR, I still think it's powerful…

2) Vicious, for same reason as above, crits are the most important thing to achieve in combat, and what players fear the most (apart from disease :D), being able to pick between two crits can be the difference between causing simple 1 crit-rate crap crits, and 5 Crit-rate nasty crits.

3) DR, as wounds eventually leads to victory, and also crits wont kill unless you also take all wounds away :)

4) Pierce, as it's almost as good as extra DR, since most will have some sort of armour.

5) Defencive, not being hit allows for living longer, but also for Counter-strike/Riposte

6) White dice…



#7 Pedro Lunaris

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 11:07 AM

The thing about lowering CR is that to me it seems more powerful if the CR already is low than if it's high. For instance, lowering a weapon that has CR 3 to 2, or CR 2 to 1, is more powerful than lowering one that is 4 to 3, because the player will be stuck trying to buy the Critical with boons, when with a low CR he can buy it while still being able to iniate other effects.

What I'm trying to say seems confusing, are you getting my meaning?



#8 Emirikol

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 11:49 AM

I totally understand, and I was thinking the same thing.

A great weapon 7/3 going to 7/2 becomes a completely broken device, whereas a dagger or gauntlet does not come anywhere near the advantage.  I was thinking of tacking on an extra 1 gold for great weapons as much for system balance, as conceptual "materials" balance.

 

If a base +7.5g would be applicable for any given bonus, in this case, it would be 8.5g.

Now, I've got to reconcile these numbers with the concepts in BFP, but this is what I've adapted from that absolutely brilliant article in Liber Fanatica 8.

 

jh



#9 Doc, the Weasel

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:37 PM

Emirikol said:

A great weapon 7/3 going to 7/2 becomes a completely broken device

I think you mean 7/2 to 7/1. Great weapons are already CR 2.

 

I would also give +1 defense more priority. +1 damage isn't going to turn the tide in most cases, but that misfortune die can keep you from being hit. It's like a free dodge vs every attack.


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#10 Teemeister

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 03:55 PM

 Do not underestimate the white dice. I am not a mathematician nor a statistic guru but from my WoW times I remember you have to hit to do some damage. The white dice increase your hit and your crit chance.

But I guess the powerfulness depends on your original stats. If you have STR 5 and weapon skill rank 3 the white die doesn't do much but for STR 2 with no trained weapon skill the white dice would be one of your most important features.

Of course also the opponent's stats are somehow important. I guess there is a kind of formula which would determine the powerfulness of specific stats depending on your own and your opponent's original stats.

All in all the white dice could tip the scales.



#11 Emirikol

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 05:41 PM

I ran some stats from the fan made dice roller.

Base single success chance of a single white die is 33%.  Here are some more:

3 Blue, 1 green, 1 yellow, 1 purple:  86% chance of success (38% of 3 successes)

plus one black defense: 79% (31% for 3)

plus one white: 83%  (39% for 3)

plus one more white: 87%  (47% for 3)

plus one more black:  81% (47% for 3) 

The benefit of white dice is that it increases your chance of three successes. Its effect on a regular success is minimal).  White die therefore is very important to cause the "special" effects on the cards AND criticals.

Lowering the CR of a great weapon looks to be the single most powerful effect however as getting one eagle is nearly guaranteed under all but the most odd circumstances.  Adding a second white die gives a roughly 47% chance of three eagles however.

 

jh



#12 Pedro Lunaris

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 05:51 AM

I'm thinking I wouldn't allow a weapon to have a CR of 1, except perhaps in the most extreme cases. Any weapon to be able to generate a critical with just one boon is sure to be a vorpal or something. So maybe a CR of 2 is something of a limit in the law of physics of the game reality…

 

Maybe a good rule is to only allow decreasing the CR of any weapon (by 1) if it is already a best quality weapon, or if you spend your money to make it one of best quality (the Weaponsmith would then increase the percentage of steel on the blade, turn it quite a few times with his hammer to make the oxygen mix better, all those cool manoeuvres we now know weaponsmith did to generate the best metals of medieval times, perhaps sometimes without knowing rationally what they were really doing).

So if you take a regular Great Weapon, which costs 1 Gold, you would have to spend 9 Gold to make it become a Best Quality Weapon. Then you could spend money to decrease it's CR. But in the case of a Great Weapon, with it's regular CR of 2, I would judge it to already be at the edge. I would only allow a CR of 1 for the greatest weaponsmith of the world to create, or a weapon with outstanding feats in it's background, or one changed with Runesmithing. But then again it could gain Defensive, Vicious, more damage and the quality to keep it's sharpness a lot longer.

Do you recall the optional rules for Best Quality weapons in 2nd ed Old World Armoury? In it, weapons would differentiate more, gaining some singularity by type. Like instead of having a Hand Weapon that happens to be a Sword, you would actually have a Best Quality Long Sword, which gained the Defensive quality automatically. Axes gained the Vicious one, if I'm not mistaken, and so on… Really simple to translate to 3rd ed.






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