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#1 Galdor

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 06:41 AM

 Hi,

 

I have the Complete collection of Descent 1 products (the base core-box + all the expansions)

If I want to buy Descent 2, why should have to PAY for conversion kit, when I have already spent hundred of euros?

 

Why FFG doesn't give free the Conversion Kit to all players which have Descent 1 products?



#2 Coldmoonrising

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 07:50 AM

Pretty self-explanatory, they're a company in business to make money. With so many cards that need to be recreated, I'm not surprised they're charging for this. The conversion kit is almost an expansion on its own.

I'm sure if you spend some time searching around, you can find companies selling the products for a % off the SRP (suggested retail price).



#3 Proto Persona

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 09:38 AM

FFG gave you what you paid for, 1st ed. They are under no obligation to continue supporting that edition and it's figures at all. They are releasing a kit full of quality cards better than what you could print yourself to let you carry over some of that investment. The cost of printing and shipping that however is not cheap, so a cost is necessary to make the conversion kit a real possibility instead of wishful thinking.

I can't think of any cases in board games, and few outside of that where a complete upgrade of your system still supported everything you bought for the old one. If you think the money you paid for Descent was a lot, imagine the people who play D&D and the amount of money they invest in source books that become useless in the new edition without homebrew rules.



#4 Coldmoonrising

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Posted 22 June 2012 - 09:50 AM

 



#5 Galdor

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 12:05 AM

 Mmmh, I disagree

A short premise: I ADORE Descent 

 I only do not agree with FFG actual commercial operation about Descent brand!

 

Coming to your replies:

First, D&D is a role-playing game, id est a different kind of hobby. In fact, in a RPG you need only ONE rulebook; all the other stuff (sourcebooks, adventures modules, etc) are Optional!

That is because if you have enough imagination, you don't need all that stuff and play forever in any case, only thanks to your imaginative mind and the rulebook set (20-40 euros).

Descent is a Boardgame: when you complete all the Quest the game is over. When you have challenged for hundreds of time the same 6 monster-types, you need new monster-types to challenge… etc

So, here come the expansions (Altar of Despair, etc).

Then came a time when FFG didn't see suitable ways to expand this brand, because a new expansion could not appear so attractive. Furthermore Descent shows some flaws, such as the looooong playing time.

….the result is…?

Descent 2!

A new Descent, where rules are simply streamlined and updated (also in order to reduce playing times), with less miniatures and components than Descent 1 core-box, at the same price that Descent 1 core-box!

In short, FFG gives you less stuff, at the same price, only to update and streamline the rules (if game designers should have done a good job some years ago…)

Ok, I can also accept that, but…

…I have spent HUNDRED of € for all Descent 1 stuff.

Now you give me Descent 2, with less components, but at the same price, only to update rules (and refresh the brand).

I can also going crazy and buy it… why should you not give me Free the Conversion Kit then?

I have already given you hundred of euros for all that stuff;

I have decided to give you more euros (a lot!) buying the updated descent;

should you allow me to play the new Descent with all my old components for free…at least?

If not, I (and many european gamers with me) will not buy Descent 2: just we'll go on playing Descent 1.



#6 Bleached Lizard

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 02:45 AM

Galdor said:

should you allow me to play the new Descent with all my old components for free…at least?

 

You can.  Just spend hundreds of hours creating the replacement cards yourself, then make friends with the owner of a local professional print company so he'll print it all out for you for free.  Et voila!  Free stuff.

In fact, I wonder why FFG didn't just do it like that…?



#7 Galdor

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 04:17 AM

Bleached Lizard said:

 

Galdor said:

should you allow me to play the new Descent with all my old components for free…at least?

You can.  Just spend hundreds of hours creating the replacement cards yourself, then make friends with the owner of a local professional print company so he'll print it all out for you for free.  Et voila!  Free stuff.

In fact, I wonder why FFG didn't just do it like that…?

 

 Because FFG decided to sell you a deck of cards for 25$… a very cheap price for a simple (but glittering) deck of cards, only aimed to update a game which FFG sold you previously for more than 200$!!

 

A smart purchase… I'm sure that several clever customers will do it 



#8 Bleached Lizard

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 05:34 AM

Galdor said:

 

Bleached Lizard said:

 

Galdor said:

should you allow me to play the new Descent with all my old components for free…at least?

You can.  Just spend hundreds of hours creating the replacement cards yourself, then make friends with the owner of a local professional print company so he'll print it all out for you for free.  Et voila!  Free stuff.

In fact, I wonder why FFG didn't just do it like that…?

 

 Because FFG decided to sell you a deck of cards for 25$… a very cheap price for a simple (but glittering) deck of cards, only aimed to update a game which FFG sold you previously for more than 200$!!

 

A smart purchase… I'm sure that several clever customers will do it 

 

 

Wow - you really take "deluded" to a whole new level.  If you think *any* company - especially a board game company, for whom profit margins are pretty tight anyway - is going to shell out tens- to possibly hundreds-of-thousands of dollars giving away a $30 dollar product for free when there is absolutely *no* reason for them to (just to highlight this point - the Conversion Kit isn't being released to "fix" anything, or make up for any mistake on FFG's part.  It's simply what it says it is - to allow a *conversion* for those who want it), then you need to check yourself into the funny farm.

The Conversion Kit is essentially an expansion for D2E.  It's just that the plastic comes separately - if you wanted the Conversion Kit to also include all the plastic as well, it would cost in the region of a couple of hundred dollars… which I believe is the part you've paid for already.



#9 PBnJ

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 08:01 AM

Not to mention how many compenies do you know will say.  "here, for all you fans with all of the minis from the 1st ed.  It's a kit so that your old minis won't just sit their and collect dust.  Mind you, it is $25, so if you want it it's yours"   Where most Comanies will say. " I know you have the minis already but we are going to put the same old monsters and hero's you have in 4 new expanions and charge you $50 for each one.  Hmmm……

Neg.  FFG Makes more money on minis we have already  $25. ok

Pos.  FFG is saying " their are no plans to use the old minis in new expanions so here is a kit. 

For me, it's easy.  Here's my $25 and thanks for supporting in finding a way to use the old 1st ed. monsters and heros. 

( here's hoping none of the cards are broken)



#10 Proto Persona

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 08:51 AM

Galdor said:

 Mmmh, I disagree

A short premise: I ADORE Descent 

 I only do not agree with FFG actual commercial operation about Descent brand!

 So you don't agree with a company being a company? Companies exist to make money for their investors, everything else is just to make you happy to give them your money. If a company doesn't exist to make more money, it stops existing real fast.

Galdor said:

Coming to your replies:

First, D&D is a role-playing game, id est a different kind of hobby. In fact, in a RPG you need only ONE rulebook; all the other stuff (sourcebooks, adventures modules, etc) are Optional!

That is because if you have enough imagination, you don't need all that stuff and play forever in any case, only thanks to your imaginative mind and the rulebook set (20-40 euros).

Descent is a Boardgame: when you complete all the Quest the game is over. When you have challenged for hundreds of time the same 6 monster-types, you need new monster-types to challenge… etc

So, here come the expansions (Altar of Despair, etc).

You can say the exact same about Descent. With some imagination you can make everything you need to not buy another expansion. But just like those optional sourcebook, the Descent expansions give you a larger variety of toys to make content with. Nothing in the Descent expansions is something you must have to play the game.

 

Galdor said:

Then came a time when FFG didn't see suitable ways to expand this brand, because a new expansion could not appear so attractive. Furthermore Descent shows some flaws, such as the looooong playing time.

….the result is…?

Descent 2!

A new Descent, where rules are simply streamlined and updated (also in order to reduce playing times), with less miniatures and components than Descent 1 core-box, at the same price that Descent 1 core-box!

In short, FFG gives you less stuff, at the same price, only to update and streamline the rules (if game designers should have done a good job some years ago…)

Ok, I can also accept that, but…

…I have spent HUNDRED of € for all Descent 1 stuff.

Now you give me Descent 2, with less components, but at the same price, only to update rules (and refresh the brand).

I can also going crazy and buy it… why should you not give me Free the Conversion Kit then?

I have already given you hundred of euros for all that stuff;

I have decided to give you more euros (a lot!) buying the updated descent;

should you allow me to play the new Descent with all my old components for free…at least?

If not, I (and many european gamers with me) will not buy Descent 2: just we'll go on playing Descent 1.

So basically you're not upset that they are making a new version of Descent, but you want to money you spent to stay valuable forever. The real world just doesn't work that way. I understand Europe is not doing that great economically right now, so the stress over having to spend even more money on the new version of the game is understandable, it's just not reasonable.

You spent money to buy Descent 1st ed because you liked it. FFG gave you exactly what you payed for. The idea that the product you bought would remain valuable forever was your idea, FFG never made any promises to you on that. It's not even reasonable to expect the stuff you bought to stay valuable forever.

This is like saying I spent money on a brand new car and now the company came out with a newer model of car with better features. As the owner of their old model car I should be able to get those new features installed in my old car for free, after all I already gave them my money for my car.



#11 Bleached Lizard

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 10:10 AM

Proto Persona said:

This is like saying I spent money on a brand new car and now the company came out with a newer model of car with better features. As the owner of their old model car I should be able to get those new features installed in my old car for free, after all I already gave them my money for my car.

This, exactly.



#12 Steve-O

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Posted 23 June 2012 - 10:19 AM

Galdor said:

First, D&D is a role-playing game, id est a different kind of hobby. In fact, in a RPG you need only ONE rulebook; all the other stuff (sourcebooks, adventures modules, etc) are Optional!

The conversion kit is optional, too.  You don't NEED it to play 2e, and you certainly don't need it to continue playing 1e, if you're so inclined.

Galdor said:

That is because if you have enough imagination, you don't need all that stuff and play forever in any case, only thanks to your imaginative mind and the rulebook set (20-40 euros).

Descent is a Boardgame: when you complete all the Quest the game is over. When you have challenged for hundreds of time the same 6 monster-types, you need new monster-types to challenge… etc

Ever heard the word "homebrew" before?

If you have enough imagination you can make new Descent quests to play forever as well.  It's probably about as much work as making new adventures in an RPG.

If you have enough imagination, you can come up with your own stats for 1e figures to use in 2e and leave the conversion kit well enough alone.  That way you can use all your precious 1e stuff without paying FFG a dime beyond the 2e base box cost.  While you're at it, you can come up with your own rules for all the tokens and other components you might want to bring over from 1e.

Galdor said:

In short, FFG gives you less stuff, at the same price, only to update and streamline the rules (if game designers should have done a good job some years ago…)

That's called inflation, and it happens to all companies in all industries.  It's the same reason why a cup of coffee today costs $2.00 when it used to be a dime.  If FFG were to produce a new edition of Descent with an equivalent amount of stuff to the first ed box, it would cost proportionately more money.  Instead they chose to keep the cost roughly equal and cut down on the number of components.

I'm not saying it doesn't suck, because it does.  What I'm saying is it's not FFG's fault, this is how the economy works.

Galdor said:

should you allow me to play the new Descent with all my old components for free…at least?

You don't need FFG's permission to use your old components in 2e, but if you want the rules that FFG spent time and money making for those components, you will have to pay.  Otherwise, as mentioned above, you can always make your own rules for these components.  If you have enough imagination, anyway.

Galdor said:

If not, I (and many european gamers with me) will not buy Descent 2: just we'll go on playing Descent 1.

Hey!  There you go!  A solution that makes everyone happy.



#13 Julia

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 11:48 AM

Galdor said:

First, D&D is a role-playing game, id est a different kind of hobby. In fact, in a RPG you need only ONE rulebook; all the other stuff (sourcebooks, adventures modules, etc) are Optional!

That is because if you have enough imagination, you don't need all that stuff and play forever in any case, only thanks to your imaginative mind and the rulebook set (20-40 euros).

Techinically, I disagree completely on this point. Some RPG require only one manual, and then you can create whatever you want with your imagination. Some others can't be played with only one manual because the core rules are split over several handbooks (some examples: Rolemaster, three books, Character Law & Campaing Law, Arms Law & Claw Law, Spell Law - and honestly, if you play without the Companions, the game is really poor; Dungeons & Dragons old edition - 5 boxes, Basic, Expert, Companion, Master, Immortal rules; Advanced Dungeons & Dragons: at least three handbooks, Player's, Gamemaster's and Monsters Manual. Plus there are some games you need adventures written by others, like Call of Cthulhu: creating a Horror on the Orient Express adventure is kinda challenging). So, yeah, sorry pal, I can't take your point

Galdor said:

Descent is a Boardgame: when you complete all the Quest the game is over. When you have challenged for hundreds of time the same 6 monster-types, you need new monster-types to challenge… etc

I'm not with you on this issue neither: Descent is rather an endless game, there are countless challenges you can face even wth the only core sets. And you have an editor to create your own maps and so on, and the monsters you can face are a little less than six. Plus, by adding expansions and so on, the game is *huge*.

Descent 2 stems from Descent 1, it's true, but it's also a brand new game, for many reasons. And in the core set you should have enough adventures to pay you back the price you paid for the new edition. Personally, I consider the two games as two different games (as I considered the first Descent a different game from Doom, even if they shared the same rules system), and I'm not interested at all (at the moment) in the conversion kit.

As for the price. Yeah, if you have all the expansions from the first edition you indeed have spent a lot of money, but still. How many hours of play? I personally have played 50 core Descent games, which means every game costed me 1.6 €, which is a perfectly reasonable price, for me. I have something like 30 other games planned before adding Altair of Despair, so the price / game will lower again.

Plus, FFG has released a new FAQ for Descent 1st ed, and they said another one will be published in the future, so that all the doubts related to the first edition will be solved. And honestly none forced them to do this, especially because the whole line is out of production. This means they will use Kevin's time to work on something they won't have any benefit for, and for me it's a sign a respect towards the customers.

Using all characters / monsters in the 2nd edition is something that can give a plusvalore to the new edition, the game will become richer, but it's not necessary in order to have the game working. So yeah, I don't have any problems with paying the kit (if I ever decide to get one)


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#14 Scy800

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Posted 24 June 2012 - 06:33 PM

 Well, as a fellow european boardgamer I can say: speak for yourself!

Everybody I know is buying the game and the conversion kit. I am just really glad they actually made an official conversion! Great style FFG, thanks! 



#15 kalle

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:02 AM

Scy800 said:

 Well, as a fellow european boardgamer I can say: speak for yourself!

Everybody I know is buying the game and the conversion kit. I am just really glad they actually made an official conversion! Great style FFG, thanks! 

Seconded ! Descent is a great game, but takes too much time to play, thus I'm waiting for ed2. And most likely I'll still play the first edition occasionally. The conversion kit is also great service, and I'll get it for sure.



#16 Sausageman

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 12:28 AM

Galdor said:

 Hi,

 

I have the Complete collection of Descent 1 products (the base core-box + all the expansions)

If I want to buy Descent 2, why should have to PAY for conversion kit, when I have already spent hundred of euros?

 

Why FFG doesn't give free the Conversion Kit to all players which have Descent 1 products?

This is the same argument as backwards compatibility in games consoles.  Sony took the stance of, if you want to be able to play your PS2 games in our new PS3, you've gotta buy one with backwards compatibility.

I see no problem with this.  They are different games (or consoles) - you wanna use your old stuff, you've gotta fork over the cash.



#17 Bleached Lizard

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Posted 25 June 2012 - 11:17 AM

I was looking for this info on BGG before but couldn't find it originally:

Users Owning: 9145

So even if the CK only costs FFG $10 per unit to produce and ship, they would still be looking at a potential outlay of just under $100,000 *just* for the people who have registered their copy on BGG.  The number of people who actually own it would be many times more.

Yeah… can't see it happening.






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